why are some people so mad? (neighborhood, subdivisions, to live in)

[gen6]

Originally Posted by NativeMontanan

So true, so very true. The "developers" don't even develop. They subdivide...most naive purchasers of this "developed ground" out of need create what is termed "Home Owner's Associations." The home owner's associations must maintain their roads and set "standards" for the people who also were only looking for a bit of beauty called Montana. They eventually start creating rules and regulations that not only cover the road maintenance, but determine what side of the road to walk on.

Home Owner Associations decide they don't want livestock. I wonder how many realize the vegetation below those beautiful trees are instant combustables. The cows, deer, horse, goats and all grazing animals "in the natural environment" eat these combustibles. Nowadays, people don't want animals "grazing" on their 20 acres. They want the natural look...i.e. deadfall that is naturally controlled by natural wildfires, broken up by bears looking for grubs and lays there and becomes "fire starter." Montana is a dry state and deadfall doesn't break down as quickly as in the state you may have left.

When these "nature lovers" own their piece of ground its off limits to grazing and their "free roaming dogs" chase the deer, bears, and natural enemies of rodents away from the grounds. The dogs aren't Livestock Guard Dogs, their human dogs and its so cute to watch them chase the deer away from the newly planted nursery grown nonnative plant.

Lodgepole need to have a fire to release the seeds from the pinecones. Montana is made up of a lot of forests that need fire. We wouldn't have aspens if we didn't have fire. After a fire comes the grasses for wild grazing animals, then the aspens and willows which protect the seedlings of the new lodgepole pine. I have seen so many beautiful "parked out" parcels. Old growth lodgepole. Hello?? What are you going to plant when this tree crowns? Austrian pine? Some fast growing conifer not native to Montana?

The "parked out" land is beautiful and the people feel they are doing their part to control fires...what happens when the last Lodgepole crowns without fire? Oh, I guess we can go to the nursery and buy a new one. That's very similar to what has happened to many species of animals. We can go to the zoo and look at them. Or we can have huge corporations like the Sierra Club come in and outlaw anyone from coming into the "spaces" allowed for these animals. Or we can be responsible people and leave nature and live near the cities/towns, allow nature to take its course without intervention of "Clubs" protecting the pine bark beetle from being sprayed.


I say hold developers (subdividers) responsible. If a person sees a way to make a buck and they have people naive enough to buy what is termed "developed" they will sell it to them. Look at the Garnet Range East of Missoula and north of Drummond. What do these people really get for their money? A once cut in road that winds back into rolling mountains. One way in/out. "Uhmmm, your other stake is somewhere over by that creek bed" says the realtors who sell this stuff, "Could never find the damn thing." The purchaser is responsible for their own means of power, heat, water, waste...what did the purchaser get, but a piece of ground cheap. What did the county get? Another person to support with agricultural status tax dollars.

The county and sometimes federal dollars are responsible for their protection. The "developer" runs as fast as he can to the bank. The "realtor" accepts their commission and the parcel owner tries to create a Home Owners Association, if they can get enough other's to buy into their dream, to keep the road up. People buying in Montana must make the DEVELOPER (Subdivider) responsible. Montana property won't seem so CHEAP if the developer needs to put some money into it and, dah, develop it.

By this I don't mean the ridiculous CC&R's created by some anal "private" developer. Their "Emerald Forest" with houses available in 3 color choices,minimum 1200 sqft homes with no more than 18" of concrete visible, and no fences, no livestock, no cutting of trees and a "walking path" easement across everyone's ground. I don't know where these CC&R's came from but THEY ARE NOT NATIVE TO MONTANA either and are becoming more prevelent.

People be aware of what you are doing to Montana and please know we are friendly, but the changes that are made to Montana are not all visible. We are not a monetarily rich state. Gee, is that why we can be exploited by what some term "developers?" Probably so. Be responsible and make your "developer" responsible. I can't afford to support you on your 40 acres and the comforts you take for granted. Montana's beautiful country side won't stay beautiful without proper management.

I totally agree with you. Some people resent our "native Montana" titles and maybe we do push it to the limit and maybe we are smug about it, however, I have to say, I'm damned proud of it. My pioneer forebearers risked life and limb to get here -- so did everyone else's, in all parts of this country, not just Montana -- but the real test is staying here for four or five or even six generations (and no, that isn't "Lewis and Clark", it's 1860's, do the math) in al place where it can be damned difficult to make a living. This isn't arrogance. Lots of people have roots to their hometowns which go back a lot further than that. The point is this: we stay because it's home to us, and for many Montanans it's staying because of one thing -- the love of the land. I grew up, got married and moved away. One year in the South, twelve years in Southern California and four more on the east coast and then, halleluja -- a chance to move back home and raise our children for what was left of their childhoods. I think I have a unique viewpoint because I did live in other parts of the country. I learned to adapt but never, ever quit being homesick for Montana. I tried to enjoy the things that these other places afforded our family. I found the cultures of other places interesting and I brought my values with me at every new place: Live and let live. But, to myself I would always compare everything to Montana. Picnics in overcrowded camp areas. Filthy lake water. People making assumptions about the western way of doing things, or the myriad ignorant statements about Montana in general. I was always astounded, particularly from Easterners, at the lack of knowledge about the Rocky Mountain West from supposedly well-educated people. The fact is, we know a lot more about them, than they understand about us. But, this is only to let you know where I'm coming from:
Since returning I've seen the changes coming. Developers do not share enough of the burden for infrastructure that they should. Here in my county in Southwest Montana -- one of the fastest growing counties -- I see them getting away with murder and still complaining. Some truly do "develop" but they still do not pay enough in impact fees. My point is this: Montana's notion of landowners rights, our stubborn idea that all of us have the right to do with our land what we wish, is going to get us into trouble. We really DO need rules and I'm not talking about CR&R's, I'm talking about subdivision laws that have teeth in them. In our county, subdivision is done through legal (phony) family conveyance surveys and boundary adjustment surveys that are all exempt from any subdivision rules and review at all. The chopping up of family ranches into 160 acre parcels with "remainders" is also without subdivision review and procedures. This is subdividing with no thought to planning or growth at all. It is subdividing without any review at all, because local county governments do not have the ability to do that under current Montana law. This is a scarey and very dangerous situation. What we have are, excuse me, some very wealthy out-of-state "developers" (and I use the term very loosely) who are coming in here and chopping up our land into unusable, weed infested, sprawling parcels which other out-of-staters snatch up, sight unseen. The so-called developers take the money and run back to wherever they came from. Only Montanans, through the legislative process, can change this. And, if we have any brains in our heads, we'll wake up before every county in the western part of this state is chopped up, every river and creek cut off from public access, along with every road leading to our public lands. We are responsible. Real estate agents, by their very nature never will be and the developers need to be made to. That will never happen until Montanans themselves wake up. Quit complaining and do something that can change this.

[Anchorless]

Great posts.

[momgonenutzinmem]

Hi....I'm new to this forum, and have found many of your comments interesting, but very disheartening for those of us who have wanted to live in MT for most of our lives! We have done extensive research, and actually talked to people who live there, and none have mentioned the unhappiness that seems to prevail among those of you who have always called MT your home......I've travelled alot and lived mostly on the East Coast; We currently live in TN, and the problems that are in TN and the East Coast are fairly similar--overcrowding in all of the schools (including the private ones) which is a direct result of overbuilding!....Every where around here the builders are building very large homes on "zero" lots.......I long to be in an area that the land hasn't been over-developed and the the people living there are actual citizens who are at least trying to speak English.....Yes, I'd love to build a home, but I certainly don't want to live where I am not wanted. And I have no intention of trying to change the area...why pick a place you like and then try to change it? That doesn't seem too logical to me! I'd like to participate in different activities and try to get to know as many people as possible...My husband and I want to assimilate into the community....but is there any chance we'd be welcomed?

I'd be interested in all comments!
Thanks.....

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Originally Posted by momgonenutzinmem

Hi....I'm new to this forum, and have found many of your comments interesting, but very disheartening for those of us who have wanted to live in MT for most of our lives! We have done extensive research, and actually talked to people who live there, and none have mentioned the unhappiness that seems to prevail among those of you who have always called MT your home......I've travelled alot and lived mostly on the East Coast; We currently live in TN, and the problems that are in TN and the East Coast are fairly similar--overcrowding in all of the schools (including the private ones) which is a direct result of overbuilding!....Every where around here the builders are building very large homes on "zero" lots.......I long to be in an area that the land hasn't been over-developed and the the people living there are actual citizens who are at least trying to speak English.....Yes, I'd love to build a home, but I certainly don't want to live where I am not wanted. And I have no intention of trying to change the area...why pick a place you like and then try to change it? That doesn't seem too logical to me! I'd like to participate in different activities and try to get to know as many people as possible...My husband and I want to assimilate into the community....but is there any chance we'd be welcomed?

I'd be interested in all comments!
Thanks.....

Call it growing pains.

There is a very small, albeit quite vocal, percentage of natives here that aren't interested in meeting new folks and don't want others to move here.

Then, there is another larger portion of "non-natives" that have moved here within the past 30 years, that will discourage anyone else who might be new from moving here...... they got theirs, so now lets slam the door and keep everyone else out.....

Then, and THEN, you've got "US"...... the true natives, that will be welcoming, hospitable and obliging..... We will welcome you with open arms, come hell or high water.

The portion of folks that visit these forums, are probably only 1/1000th of the total of Montana's population, so I wouldn't bother much with drawing any kind of general consensus with regard to many of the postings you are reading.

When you come to Montana, all of your fears and apprehension will melt away, because most of us (99.9%) are not at all unfriendly.

Let me be the first to Welcome You To Your New Home.

[momgonenutzinmem]

Thanks Giftshoppe Guy!
I really appreciate your positive comments.....We are leaving this Sunday for our vacation to your great state...and we are all looking forward to it, especially since you have given us some words of encouragement!

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Originally Posted by momgonenutzinmem

Thanks Giftshoppe Guy!
I really appreciate your positive comments.....We are leaving this Sunday for our vacation to your great state...and we are all looking forward to it, especially since you have given us some words of encouragement!

Well by golly, you'ld better get with it then.

Some of the most awe inspiring country in the lower 48, you'll ever see is right here in Montana.

From Glacier to Yellowstone, and everything else in between... Don't forget to take lots of pictures..... you won't regret it.

Maybe one day, this will be "your" great state too.

Travel safe.

[jimj]

Very well said Giftshoppe!

[momgonenutzinmem]

I hope it will be my homestate in the near future, too! And I can understand why the citizens of your great state are very "protective" of MT.....Almost every state I have lived in has become or is becoming more and more crowded; they are just urban sprawls, and NO sense of community anymore. It's pretty sad...And with all of that sprawl comes crime....NY city is much safer than most of the cities I have recently lived near.

Thanx again!

[orygun]

Originally Posted by gen6

I totally agree with you. Some people resent our "native Montana" titles and maybe we do push it to the limit and maybe we are smug about it, however, I have to say, I'm damned proud of it.

This was a great post! You said it all very well. And you are SO right about Montanans believing in letting people do what they want with their land and that is definitely going to cause trouble.

As far as other perspectives from living elsewhere, that is so true as well. I have done the same and other places just don't compare to MT. A pond in Spokane looked like a cesspool to me!

[JoeJoeMan]

Momgonenut.... wrote:

I long to be in an area that the land hasn't been over-developed

Well why would you wanna move to montana then ? If western Montana isn't being over-developed I don't know what is. Compared to Calif I guess you could say it ain't being over-developed but then again nothing could compare to that mess.....
I once talk to a local politician who was very much in touch with what people in the community felt, and they told me that 80 percent of the people would be very happy if growth would just stop. But that it was a very unpopular notion to put foward or outwardly express, lest you'd be looked at in a negative light, anti-social, hostile to new-comers, etc......
Most people don't want to see all this growth, it's that plain and simple --- so it's perfectly understandable that that sentiment is express so frequently on this forum....and no it doesn't make the people who express that notion unfriendly montanas, resentfull to outsiders, or angry or any of that stuff, we just loved our state and want to preserve it and are greatly sadden when we see what is happening to it.......it's not that we don't like you, I don't think that is so hard to understand - but yet people on this forum keep saying we are angry, mad, hostile, and are few in number and attutude.....no of which is true.....
I hope everyone finds a nice place to live, you just have to be real aware that you are not ruining someone else's home in doing so. ie. all piling into western montana