why are some people so mad? (Big Timber, Boulder: wages, live, prices)

[dldavis]

What we are trying to say is its ok to move here but dont change what Montana is all about. you all will sell your 700 home and then move to Montana, drive up the prices and then complain about the criters who eat your dog or cat, you will want a starbucks on every cornor. If you want the same conveniences you currently have dont come here. Do you know that my basement flooded and I couldnt even find a construction company to fix the rotted timber because all the construction companies are too busy building your new homes.

Leave Montana the way it is and we will be fine.

[orygun]

Originally Posted by jimj

We tend to do the same thing you are doing...so don't feel bad. It's not that people don't want to answer you out of meaness, apartments are not really prevelent in the smaller cities. You may have to look for a duplex or a house. If an apartment is what you have to get you may have to look in a bigger city or look in the local paper.

True. Anytime I have looked into rentals near Livingston they have been few and far between but generally affordable.

[Moosehead]

I am from the Adirondack Mountains and I can see how people can get frustrated when the cost of living goes up, especially real estate.
People that are born and raised here tend do be simple and they don’t make a whole lot of money, when property becomes over priced its hard for the next generation to stick around. We have a large amount of people form NJ, NY City, and other states buying up all the land for seasonal use. This is also causing the tax's to go up as well. There is not much we can do, we either except it or move to Montana or Alaska . I guess we are all in the same boat hey.
But at the same time, if some good folks want to make a better life for themselves without expecting people to change thier way of life, then its their God given right, after all nobody can claim a state as their own, this is America, everyone has a right to go after their own little American dream, what ever & where ever that may be.

[gen6]

Originally Posted by jenzebel

This is a terribly simplistic view of Montanans, mining and ranching that shows little understanding of the natural environment.

People in Montana DO care about the land. We do look at the impacts of mining, ranching and logging.

Mining has left behind many messes in Montana that the mining companies now refuse to acknowledge as their responsibility. Mining companies, for the most part, promised in the past to clean up after themselves but instead, left huge scars behind and now refuse to clean up; many of those that previously didn't mind mining have become jaded and distrustful of mining companies. I think we've learned our lesson from it. We most recently voted against legislation that would allow cyanide heap-leach gold mining.

Cattle ranching is not always destructive and there are many responsible land stewards among ranchers. In fact the Nature Conservancy has some conservation easements on ranch lands that they still allow cattle to graze on--certainly an organization dedicated to conservation wouldn't allow destruction on their lands

I have read Diamond too. Diamond presents some interesting and valid points. His Montana focus is on the Bitterroot; he owns a vacation home there. He also tends focus on environmental destruction as a cause of societal collaspe. First of all, I don't agree with the factors he states led to environmental destruction in Montana and interestingly enough, he minimizes his contribution to the Bitterroot's destruction.

Ranching and logging were traditional industries in the Bitterroot. Investigate the history, both cultural and environmental, of the Bitterroot and you will see that the destruction there has not occurred from environmental damage from long time ranchers but instead from the increasing environmental pressure and damage from the influx of people like Diamond, who just MUST have their vacation home there, and it always MUST be smack dab in wildlife habitat. I wouldn't exactly call him or those similar environmental responsible.

Now consider the total environmental impacts of those huge and not so huge vacation homes and subdivisions . First off, how about all the resources the McMansions take to build and the footprint they leave on the environment and for what--to be used a few times a year by a few people. Tell me how that is responsible for the environment. Most of these same people who claim to be so ENVIRONMENTAL are a JOKE. I look at them and laugh at their hypocrisy, especially since many ranchers I know are actually responsible land stewards being called bad guys by these PSEUDO-ENVIRONMENTALIST McMansion owners and others that move here with no understanding and respect for environment.

Logging also gets a bad reputation, sometimes undeservedly. Diamond makes it sound like we've destroyed our logging industry through overcutting. Logging didn't stop in Montana thorough environmental destruction, logging was effectively halted because much of the timber is found on Forest Service land and virtually every FS timber sale ends up in appeal. Again, I may not agree with every timber sale but to stranglehold a whole industry because you don't want ANY trees cut is ridiculous. There are situations where cutting timber would help the overall environment, not harm it. No one wants to see destructive forest fires and in the past, yes the forest cleaned itself through fire. But this is not the past, humans have encroached upon the forests and built houses right where these cleansing fires should take place (especially those pseudo-environmentalists). Yet no one wants to lose their home to a fire. It is a catch 22--they want to live in the woods, yet they don't want logging, even to clean up the beetle-killed dead and dry standing timber and when a fire starts in their neighborhood, they want you to try to protect their home when it is all but impossible at times to do much of anything once a fire starts rolling.

This lack of true environmental understanding and accompanying pseudo-environmentalism are things that I find so distasteful in many of those coming here to Montana. Subdivisions, McMansions, etc. have cause much more environmental damage than logging or ranching ever have. Diamond, despite having a vacation home here, looks at it from an outsider point of view. His opinion is that Montana is kept alive by outside money and if Montana were an isolated country, it would collapse. I agree that currently, Montana is being bought and sold by outside interests, leaving us in economic disaster. However, if Montana were its own country, with the lessons we've learned, we would kick out the huge companies that have left environmental problems for us to clean up, and do it ourselves--more responsibly since it is our home. Plus we could put a moratorium on the number of people moving here and eliminate that environmental disaster.

I think you put that all very well. It's all about common sense. No one needs to tell us that mining has caused catastrophes in the past (just ask Arco after it bought the Anaconda Co holdings in Butte). However, mining's negative impact certainly isn't particular to just Montana, or even to just the West in general. Ever been to northeastern Pennsylvania? The point is that mining CAN create good jobs and extract valuable resources that the world needs. And, it is entirely possible to mine and demand that companies are careful, clean up their messes and reclaim the land when they're through. The same goes for the lumber industry. We Montanans would like to have a robust economy with good paying jobs that don't just include outfitting and other service-oriented jobs. I think most Montanans resent the notion that "The Environment" begins and ends at the Rocky Mountain Front. No one loves and appreciates their land any more than Montanans do. If we weren't good stewards of the land, all you people wouldn't want to move here and people like Diamond wouldn't have a place he'd want to visit every summer. Again, the resentment comes because some folks like to tell us what to do, and how and when and IFwe can do it. How could we not feel resentment with that attitude?

[Anchorless]

I'm not sure if it's so much newcomers b---ing and complaining to get things as it is opportunism and capitalism at its finest.

People moving to a new place increases the population, and creates opportunity for new business. People can start business that cater to the new population, and provide jobs. So more people move in because of the business environment, and pretty soon big box and corporate retail notices. They want in, too. They say they'll provide jobs and pay a lot in taxes to the city. But they want improved infrastructure.

So they come in, and suddenly rural Montana just got a little more friendlier for curious city folk who want the mountains but also want the Starbucks. And so they begin to invest in Montana.

And it spreads, and spreads, and spreads, and spreads......such is capitalism. So long as people can make a buck, right?


Tell me I'm wrong.


I've posted similar arguments before and they've been received horribly. People like to think I'm claiming the sky is falling or that I'm exaggerating, yet no one steps up and counters my argument. They just say I'm off-topic and they report me.

[Reziac]

"If you build it, they will come."

In CA that refers to the freeways -- as soon as a freeway comes in, a massive population increase follows within about 10 years. Thanks to the freeway, a formerly-rural area becomes commuter-friendly, and most of the jobs you can make a real living at are in the cities... meanwhile, housing is cheaper in the formerly-rural areas, which draws even more people.

(How massive? the SoCal high desert population went from about 100,000 to nearly 500,000 in just 10 years!!!)

In more generally-rural states like MT, it still applies, but refers more to malls and other yuppie-oriented businesses. If you build 'em, they will come.

Big-box isn't necessarily one of them; the first I can recall in MT was Yellow Front in Great Falls, which didn't do so well back in the 70s, and finally went out of business. And Sam's Club is still redneck-friendly, whereas Costco has been going-yuppie for 6-7 years now. I don't think it's any huge surprise that Sam's is in GtFalls and Costco is in Bozeman.

Oddball distinction: I never, ever heard the word "freeway" in MT; there, that four-lane road is the "interstate". In CA they're always called "freeways" and folks look at you funny if you refer to the "interstate".

.

[Miborn]

Whats interesting about Americans is that do as I say not as I do seems to be of epidemic status.
When a large group of anything behaves in a certain way for a long period of time it is labeled. It can be a group of animals as well, we do it all the time when studying a species. Certain traits are prevalent and unless behavior modification is used to change behavior it will continue.
With that said it has been a large groug of said Ca's that have behaved badly towards their fellow americans and are now labled so blame them.
there are more that are continuing to behave badly. Because they can. It is kind of like a bully if everyone ignores them maybe they won't pick on us. If we are nice to them maybe they will pick on someone else. Well, adults sometimes think that their peers have nothing to say about their behavior and that is just not the case. So when a group is going against the norm that society has set forth they are usually brought to the carpet so to speak. Idahoans and Montana are such people they are proud of their state they are protective of their property and everything that they hold dear. They don't like drastic change.

[01yz426]

Originally Posted by jenzebel

Exactly! I am fed up with their attitudes! Just because I grew up with and want to maintain a simpler lifestyle---without all the McMansions, WalMarts, Starbucks and subdivisions staring me in the face---somehow they think that my desire is less important than their desire to move here. THEY are coming here--THEY are the ones that should adjust to Montana, not the other way around. But I've been watching this for years in various parts of Montana and they never adjust---they just force their lifestyle on us!


I want to know from these people--why do come here and demand you have all the conveniences you had in California or New York or wherever? You say you don't, yet with every snowstorm you are complaining, each time a wild animal threatens your dog you are complaining, the local grocery store doesn't have what they had in California or wherever and you are complaining, the "right" stores are too far away and you are complaining....

All those conveniences you left behind come with a price. You don't get the good without the bad. If you want all the conveniences and services, guess what, you need more of a population base to support it. And when you get more population you are right back where you started--in a populated area that is everything you are running from now, unless you try to regulate who moves here. Oh I get it, that it would be okay with you, once you are here, to keep certain people that you may consider inappropriate in your new home out, yet I am not allowed to feel that same way about you moving here!

For years Montanans were more than willing to deal with the tradeoffs of a rural lifestyle because in general Montanans stayed for something other than prosperity. Our values are different--we value a rural lifestyle and true sense of community.

And now that all of you are moving here and changing the state I love, whether you intend to or not, you are part of the problem. Just what am I supposed to do? I desire less people, less government, less convenience than you. Why should I pay the price for you to have something I don't want? Do you think I should move to the next less developed place as you are doing and thereby impact that area but since it is my desire, it is okay, even if it hurts those already there? Or should I just stay and give up my desire for the benefit of your desire? Either way, it seems these people moving in think I am the one that is supposed to do the changing? How selfish!

I must ask.... Are you Native American or do you have any Native American bloodlines? I think you know why I'm asking you this... Yes I'm a new guy to this site and probably don't understand everyones points of views on EVERY issue but EVERYONE in the history of MAN has had a similar problem with people moving in and the so called ORIGINALS not likeing it... If someone were to say move to MONTANA and bring a trade to the state or a lifesaving ability wouldn't you want that? And if not why???

I'll leave my above post here, but I've found out by reading a post of yours that you do have Native Bloodlines or something of that sort so PLEASE disregard my comment above...

[jimj]

The personal attacks need to stop or the thread will close.
Thank you,
[Moderator]

[grizzfan]

I haven't read this post for several months and it seems you guys are still at it!!

Interestingly, (perhaps someone mentioned here before, but I have no desire to read 27 pages of this stuff!) Tom Brokaw and his wife moved to the Boulder area a couple of years ago, south of Big Timber. He has recently produced a DVD for people thinking about moving to Montana; what to expect; what to do and not to do; how to respect the traditions of the people who made this state what it is; how not to impose your way of life on others; respect for the land, etc, etc.

A very good piece. This is a different place from anywhere else. Sure it's changing in both good and bad ways, but nowhere else can you still find the beauty, the serenity, quiet and trustworthy people than here. We who are native to this place constantly trade stories on how things were in "the old days". They are gone for sure. But it's a place to die for. I'm constantly reminded about the scene from "A River Runs Through It" where Paul says, "Well, I'll never leave Montana, brother." A lot of us think that way. Please come here, but don't ever help us change our minds by your actions.

Tom