why are some people so mad? (Bozeman, Three Forks: ski resort, deed, agricultural)

[BigSkyHopes]

Zeeburt...I've gotta side with MattMan on this one. I think that if you were to ask newcomers to the state the reason why they moved to Montana after living in a large city, they would likely respond that they did so to improve their standard of living. As such, I'm curious as to what defines a high standard of living for you? I'd also like to know, based on the number of hours of work you put in each week, where you find the time to experience and enjoy a higher standard of living?

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by Zeeburt

Yes, I understand. Some people are content with a lower standard of living and a simpler life. However, those people should accept the fact that they will be unable to afford what they want, as insisting on a low standard of living is also insisting on not keeping pace with economic growth. Life is competitive... if others progress and make and produce more and you choose not to, then you have to accept the consequences. Legislating failure to grow is not fair to those who want to earn more and live better, so even if you find a group of people who want to do and have less, they have no right to hold back everyone else. There is, fortunately, a solution. Take, for example, what the Amish do in PA.... they own a large area of land and live how they choose on it, isolating themselves from the outside world. If you can find enough people who want things to remain simple, why not get them together and buy a remote undeveloped area and keep it that way?

This all depends on what one considers a "lower standard of living". Personally I just don't want Montana to be another cookie cutter version of every other city, with the same stores, the same restaurants etc... I am a very hard worker and a producer, but I cherish my off-work time and spend it with my family and friends enjoying our time together and watching our children grow. I've kept up with the rising cost of living. Sometimes it's very frustrating and makes it easy to target and blame new people coming here with their ideas, trying to change everything, and it makes a lot of work for a lot of us that is really a waste of resources that could be used more wisely.

Just as you may think it unfair for people to resist big box stores and large scale development, I think it's unfair for big box stores and large scale development to be forced down my throat.

I'm with Elkhunter and Mattman on this, I'm perfectly content with my old pickup, my old boat, my small house and my lifestyle. I fought for this country because of this kind of life, not for it to turn into some productivity machine that only cares about the bottom line and spits out everything and everyone in it's path that doesn't join in that kind of mindset or agree with it.

[Reziac]

What Timberwolf said. What constitutes a "higher" or "lower" standard of living is often in the eye of the beholder. The goal of a standard of living is to achieve comfort and contentment with your life, not just to have a big house or a 6-figure income (and all the toys that can bring you).

But some people can't BE comfortable or content with their lives unless they have those things, and they find it difficult or impossible to understand that other people have an entirely different view of their standard of living, or may not require anywhere near as much to be comfortable and content.

"If I have more money than I need, I'm rich." -- D.Llewellyn Drong

"My father wasn't a poor man. He was a rich man with no money." -- Dom deLuise

.

[mattman3seven]

Originally Posted by Reziac

But some people can't BE comfortable or content with their lives unless they have those things, and they find it difficult or impossible to understand that other people have an entirely different view of their standard of living, or may not require anywhere near as much to be comfortable and content.



.

Perfectly said my friend!

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by mattman3seven

Perfectly said my friend!

And all I want is a chance to PROVE that money can't buy happiness

.

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by Reziac

And all I want is a chance to PROVE that money can't buy happiness

.

Sign me up for that too... Sounds like a good research project. We might be able to get a grant for that!

[vegaspilgrim]

This thread caught my eye, and I just sifted through all 46 pages of it. I've only been to one little corner of Montana (West Yellowstone) once in my whole life for one day. I have no desire to ever live in Montana, and it's not even on my travel plans anytime soon. But as a native Coloradan and a life long big city type (born and raised in Denver, went to college in Phoenix, now I'm heading to Los Angeles for one year), I can relate to the issues going on here. We have had thread after thread on the Colorado forum about these same issues-- Californians and others moving in, rising cost of living, rural sprawl, loss of working ranches, population explosion. I think JoeJoeMan is right on the money; it's a shame he's no longer a member. Only difference of opinion I have is I don't classify people as Californians or Texans or whatever state they come from; I classify people as either metropolitan urban/suburban dwellers or rural people.

The way of life of traditional rural people who earn their living from the land or in true small towns and urban/suburbanites who live in giant metropolitan areas working in office jobs is so different, the two groups of people are totally different animals. And the way I see it, even though yes, this is a free country and there are no laws preventing freedom of movement, big city dwellers have NO BUSINESS moving into rural areas and buying McMansions and McRanches. Problem is, everybody wants to have their cake and eat it too. They feel that just because they have worked hard and put up with a lot of crap to live in a city that offers high paying jobs, they are entitled to go into Montana (or insert "found paradise" here ___) and subdivide the land for their second home, vacation home, or retirement home. Well the truth is that they ain't.

There are many fine, wonderful people living in Los Angeles, Phoenix, Denver, Las Vegas, pretty much any big city you can think of, but as JoeJoeMan says, the best thing they can do is stay where they are. Even giant cities are divided into many neighborhoods, each of which can be communities. When you stay on your side, and I stay on mine, and neither tries to intrude on the other and we both mind each other's business, we can both get along, even if our lifestyles are diametrically opposite. Well, actually, one exception-- I can understand why someone, especially a young person starting out, who doesn't even own property, would move from LA to Phoenix or Denver just to make ends meet. That's moving from one big metro area to another. And sometimes employers relocate to smaller, less expensive cities to cut down the cost of doing business.

But Denver, Phoenix, etc, are still big cities. Nothing in Montana (no offense to you guys in Billings) qualifies as a big city. Montana's problem is not really urban sprawl; it's semi-rural, ex-urban sprawl that's eating up the state. It's the people (often Californians are the ones who are stereotyped for doing this-- because it's often true) who move out of California to a cheaper and more scenic state, not just so that they can make ends meet (they often are already doing fairly well off), but so they can live a more materialistic life, with a bigger house, bigger car than they ever had before-- those people who are totally out of their element.

Montana (or any western state, for that matter) doesn't need any more love. I find it amusing on the Colorado forum where at least once a week someone comes on singing the praises about how beautiful Colorado is (as if they expect Coloradans to be their best friends just because they agree it's beautiful) before proceding to ask about how they can further exurban development. And even if someone wants to move to a rural area and live a totally different lifestyle, why does it have to be Montana? There are hundreds of rural counties in the Great Plains states that have been losing population for decades-- they could actually use some new bodies. Even eastern Montana has been losing population for some time. What's wrong with moving to somewhere in Kansas? Or western/upstate New York State?

It's because for people with the entitlement attitude, those areas aren't "good enough" for them. And they can't just move into an established town either; they have to have their trophy house ON a mountain, or a mini piece of land in what once was a giant ranch. Unlike flat plains areas, valleys in western Montana (as well as the west slope of Colorado) only have so much room available for development before the place gets totally built out. It doesn't take much to overpopulate a mountain valley and ruin it forever. The truth is, urban dwellers need to either learn how to be content where they are, or move to a true, uncrowded rural area and live in a humble existence. It's the ex-urban, auto-dependent McRanch lifestyle that is the real problem; it's the worst of both worlds.

[Huckleberry3911948]

i like montana i got friends there but i am happy where i am.
we have a lot of freedom to move to different places. the people from oklahoma were not welcome when they left the dustbowl. out here people did not like them.
some things don't change.

[taw1955]

After reading all these posts about Montana it definitely doesnt look like newcomers would be welcome here. That is very sad and small minded. I m glad I live where I live and its not anywhere near montana.

[Timberwolf232]

Originally Posted by taw1955

After reading all these posts about Montana it definitely doesnt look like newcomers would be welcome here. That is very sad and small minded. I m glad I live where I live and its not anywhere near montana.

Yup, we are all small minded. We're all glad you live where you live too.