why are some people so mad? (Great Falls, Shelby: campers, closing, plumbing)

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by TypicalCalifornian

Now this would be a better story is someone was from Montana and another from California but the moral of the story is probably never assume you're not gonna be totally sorry for lending a hand.

No good deed goes unpunished. -- Clare Boothe Luce (1903-1987)

But she also said, "In the final analysis there is no other solution to man's progress but the day's honest work, the day's honest decision, the day's generous influences, and the day's good deed."

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[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by Reziac

No good deed goes unpunished. -- Clare Boothe Luce (1903-1987)

But she also said, "In the final analysis there is no other solution to man's progress but the day's honest work, the day's honest decision, the day's generous influences, and the day's good deed."

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Did she say that before or after her affair with Gen. Lucian Truscott in Italy?

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

Did she say that before or after her affair with Gen. Lucian Truscott in Italy?

I'm guessing the quotes are split before and after!

[staywarm2]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

This thread caught my eye, and I just sifted through all 46 pages of it. I have no desire to ever live in Montana, and it's not even on my travel plans anytime soon. I can relate to the issues going on here. We have had thread after thread on the Colorado forum about these same issues-- Californians and others moving in, rising cost of living, rural sprawl, loss of working ranches, population explosion.

Montana (or any western state, for that matter) doesn't need any more love. I find it amusing on the Colorado forum where at least once a week someone comes on singing the praises about how beautiful Colorado is (as if they expect Coloradans to be their best friends just because they agree it's beautiful) before proceding to ask about how they can further exurban development. And even if someone wants to move to a rural area and live a totally different lifestyle, why does it have to be Montana? There are hundreds of rural counties in the Great Plains states that have been losing population for decades-- they could actually use some new bodies. Even eastern Montana has been losing population for some time. What's wrong with moving to somewhere in Kansas? Or western/upstate New York State?

From an anthropological standpoint, it seems to me that there is a mass migration going on all over this country, perhaps the greatest since the influx of immigrants into the US in the 1800's. People from all over are moving to other states. We in the South are feeling some of the same types of changes as you are. Northeasterners and upper midwest folks moving south to be warm in the winter. Since they don't want to go to FL much anymore, they are relocating to the other southern states like crazy. I wonder what kind of impact all this will have on our country in the years to come. I personally think it's engendering a lot of mistrust and animosity. Good luck dealing with the changes to your beautiful state.

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by staywarm2

they are relocating to the other southern states like crazy. I wonder what kind of impact all this will have on our country in the years to come. I personally think it's engendering a lot of mistrust and animosity. Good luck dealing with the changes to your beautiful state.

I'm retired and moved a couple of years ago from Chicago to Lexington Ky. As far as impact goes I know I tip better than most locals at the car wash and Chinese buffet. Other than that I'm fine with local customs, I wouldn't try to tell native Kentuckians how to live, none of my business. I understand that my very presence here has some effect though but I live in town anyway not out in the boonies.

[Timberwolf232]

People are people. I'm just getting tired of the "new" attitude that seems to be infiltrating our state. All the communications technology we have now in my opinion has hurt more than it has helped. Sure it makes some peoples business easier, but for the most part it's killing the unique and original spots all over the place. All the cities and mid sized towns are becoming cookie cutters of each other, with the same restaurants, grocery stores, gas stations, retail outfits etc..

I would love to see what happened if we lost all TV, internet, cell phones etc... as a matter of fact I'd go as far as to say I'd welcome it. It amazes me that people think we can't live without this stuff, when it's a late 20th century happening. People have lived far longer without all that stuff, we'd just have to make some adjustments.

[Wicked Felina]

Originally Posted by staywarm2

From an anthropological standpoint, it seems to me that there is a mass migration going on all over this country, perhaps the greatest since the influx of immigrants into the US in the 1800's. People from all over are moving to other states. We in the South are feeling some of the same types of changes as you are. Northeasterners and upper midwest folks moving south to be warm in the winter. Since they don't want to go to FL much anymore, they are relocating to the other southern states like crazy. I wonder what kind of impact all this will have on our country in the years to come. I personally think it's engendering a lot of mistrust and animosity. Good luck dealing with the changes to your beautiful state.

I found your comments extremely interesting. I thought I'd posted about this before, but couldn't find it. So forgive me, if I'm repeating myself, folks.

I know a biologist in Washington State. He works with native tribes from California up to and including Alaska. They - scientists who try to protect, maintain and predict food source changes - are continually studying this "mass migration."

This is my understanding of what he said: This population shift is happening all over the world, moving from south to north, and no one state or country will be immune from it. I think we in the US are late in feeling its effects.

It is in part based on the theory of global warming, and indisputable habitat losses. (Just this week a sea mammal was declared extinct-from overfishing- and more due to follow within a few decades).

However, the "mass migration" is not a theory; we have been experiencing it slowly since the 50's - it's just never directly affected most of us before.

staywarm2, your theory about this migration engendering mistrust and animosity is spot on, IMO. People are moving out of the greatest populated areas, and expanding into less populated states. Who wants that in their backyards?

I just don't see how refusing to adjust can bode well for us. This is certainly not an alarmist idea; we will out of necessity learn to acclimate to a changing world. This migration is a reality and will happen whether we like it or not.

Can't remember, but I think he called it something like 'population shift ---'. Sounds better than mass migration to me!

I wish sincere good luck to everyone in coming to grips with our man-made evolution ~

[TypicalCalifornian]

We evolve, or we dissolve. People who know rule people who don't. People who know live long, people who don't live brutal lives and die young.

Well that is at least the way it always was. I suspect those of us who were raised with this ethos studied hard and worked to avoid this more brutal life for ourselves and those we loved. I think the shift that causes many of us to react angrily and fearfully is the blurring of these harsh realities an that leads to the south moving north without having to accept the cultural values that led to our richer, more successful society. So we end up with school systems that don't teach, hospitals with ER's with 12 hour long waits and that eventually close the doors in bankruptcy, penalties for traditional values and subsidies for behaviors that seem questionable to at least conventional morality as many of us grew up with.

Just for the record, I don"t believe in (anthropogenic) global warming, it's a sham and a scam, just repackaged socialism. I don't necessarily believe in overpopulation either as those richer more productive able societies often are higher than average population density. What I do believe is that societies that don't understand change often make poor choices out of panic, usually fear of the wrong things.

A famous and talented writer/intellectual Jared Diamond wrote about this very thing we are discussing, Montana and change from the outside, specifically in the Bitterroot valley in his bestseller "Collapse: Why societies choose to fail or succeed"). I disagree with all of his conclusions (his prescriptions being more accepting of statism as our only chance) but I do appreciate his setup of the facts and cases (especially the use of Montana as a paradigm of massive change). I guess if I were smarter I'd be more in agreement with Diamond but I don't because his solutions accept actions not in keeping with what I consider basic American values (i.e., become more like say Sweden).

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf232

People are people. I'm just getting tired of the "new" attitude that seems to be infiltrating our state. All the communications technology we have now in my opinion has hurt more than it has helped. Sure it makes some peoples business easier, but for the most part it's killing the unique and original spots all over the place. All the cities and mid sized towns are becoming cookie cutters of each other, with the same restaurants, grocery stores, gas stations, retail outfits etc..

That's very true, and the trend is accelerating as mom-and-pop businesses close, or get bought out by chains, and as older downtowns are torn down and replaced by malls. Used to be every town had its own character. Since the Great Malling of America, everywhere looks alike.

And what's this obsession with "growth"?? What's wrong with a stable status quo, where maybe no one is getting rich, but no one is getting poorer, either.

But nowadays properity seems to be measured by how many Starbucks your town has.

Originally Posted by Timberwolf232

I would love to see what happened if we lost all TV, internet, cell phones etc... as a matter of fact I'd go as far as to say I'd welcome it. It amazes me that people think we can't live without this stuff, when it's a late 20th century happening. People have lived far longer without all that stuff, we'd just have to make some adjustments.

Got along without it before we met it, gonna get along without it now... I do think you're right. Phones and TV weren't so bad, because they were initially expensive, therefore market penetration was slow, and that meant they got adapted into people's lives, rather than people having to adapt to THEM. But the internet was a massive change in a very short timeframe, allowing no chance for a gradual adaptation. The older generation resisted being forced to change, and youngsters embraced it with youth's usual fascination with novelty, but the upshot was that it locked out the one group and radically changed the other. Most notably, no one has any patience anymore -- everything has to be NOW. Yeah, that's come over from the yuppie camp, but the internet enables it.

Ironically, I'm the program tonight at the local computer user grope (which is almost all seniors, so we move pretty slow -- and tonight's topic is "how to set up a simple website". Should I tell 'em that I use an HTML editor that's now 11 years old? in meatspace terms, that's like driving a car built in 1940!
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[jimj]

Back to the original question, it's because it's the 10th of June and been snowing all day and expected to until noon tomorrow!
It's killing all my veggies that I planted and snapping tree branches
Oh well, according to the weather summer starts friday!