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Old 08-20-2008, 05:19 AM
 
Location: SoCalif
102 posts, read 239,047 times
Reputation: 95

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While I understand these anti-growth arguments on an emotional level, even a moment of reflection on the laws of economics suggests the dreams will not play out.

For example, take Malibu, California, arguably the most demanded piece of coastline in the USA. If the 400 richest people in Hollywood each have 20 acres and commanding views of the Pacific, and dislike terribly the condo craze populated by mere TV actors, what can they do to stop this? The can invent the coastal commission, the Sierra Club and and entire body of law to keep their views and exclusivity.

The unintended consequence (maybe not, hmmm) is the existing properties soar in value and since they have not stopped stamping out rich people wanting to live in Malibu, 401 people now are willing and able to pay for the static 400 properties.

The point? Laws to stop new McRanches would only drive up the price of existing McRanches which would inevitably drive up the price of existing older structures beyond any chance a Montana regular family would be able to afford a home.

When you have a Supply-Demand imbalance, as you do with cocaine, diamonds and Montana real estate, tinkering with the Supply side seldom leads to the result one hoped for.

You need to work on the Demand side, find a way to make Montana less desirable perhaps. While you're working on that problem you will also probably provide valuable findings which will solve the drug problem in America as well as make diamonds the mere pieces of compressed carbon they are worth 1/10 of current price.
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Currently in Oscoda!!
274 posts, read 561,011 times
Reputation: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan View Post
I still don't get why you have to move all the way up here to get away, from crime, durgs, etc.... you could probably move 100 miles from where you are and get away from it, or ok 200 miles, why do you have to come all the way up here ? That's that part I don't get.
Last time I checked this is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!! Thousands of our soldiers have died and are dying to protect our freedoms, DO NOT EVER FORGET THAT! One freedom we have is freedom of choice and to be able to move where ever we want to. You have to realize not everyone is lucky enough to be born in Montana like you. So should we be punished and not move to somewhere we want to? Hell no... we have freedom of choice.

I understand about not wanting to change your way of life and values, but you have to realize not EVERYONE moving to Montana is looking to put up a shopping mall etc. Most of them were born and raised in a big city and DO NOT like and want to get away!! And they have that choice because we live in the best country in the World!!

GOD BLESS THE U.S.A. AND ALL OUR SOLDIERS WHO HAVE DIED AND WHO ARE FIGHTING AND DYING TO PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,810,559 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Want_Snow View Post
Last time I checked this is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!! Thousands of our soldiers have died and are dying to protect our freedoms, DO NOT EVER FORGET THAT! One freedom we have is freedom of choice and to be able to move where ever we want to. You have to realize not everyone is lucky enough to be born in Montana like you. So should we be punished and not move to somewhere we want to? Hell no... we have freedom of choice.

I understand about not wanting to change your way of life and values, but you have to realize not EVERYONE moving to Montana is looking to put up a shopping mall etc. Most of them were born and raised in a big city and DO NOT like and want to get away!! And they have that choice because we live in the best country in the World!!

GOD BLESS THE U.S.A. AND ALL OUR SOLDIERS WHO HAVE DIED AND WHO ARE FIGHTING AND DYING TO PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS!!!!!!!!
Just remember that when people are born and bred in the big city, it can be hard on them to adapt to a rural lifestyle, next thing ya know they are whining to the police because of a bear or coyote in the yard, or demanding more snowplowing, paving, city type services etc... all that stuff requires MONEY and a lot of us don't appreciate our taxes going up to take care of people that don't know what the heck they are doing on their new McRanch.

When they realize it's not like what they saw in the movies or on tv and then start demanding changes to suit them. (some of these people don't move out here with the intention of being like that, but it's been bred into them and they can't help it.)

A person may have the legal right to move wherever they want, but that doesn't always mean it's a good idea.
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Old 08-20-2008, 06:34 PM
 
Location: West Yellowstone, MT
239 posts, read 608,861 times
Reputation: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf232 View Post
Just remember that when people are born and bred in the big city, it can be hard on them to adapt to a rural lifestyle, next thing ya know they are whining to the police because of a bear or coyote in the yard, or demanding more snowplowing, paving, city type services etc... all that stuff requires MONEY and a lot of us don't appreciate our taxes going up to take care of people that don't know what the heck they are doing on their new McRanch.

When they realize it's not like what they saw in the movies or on tv and then start demanding changes to suit them. (some of these people don't move out here with the intention of being like that, but it's been bred into them and they can't help it.)

A person may have the legal right to move wherever they want, but that doesn't always mean it's a good idea.


You seem to be upset at someone from the "outside" telling you how to live your life...and then you tell them how to live their life by telling them where they should or should not live. Maybe everyone should just mind their own business. If someone from Florida or California wants to move to Montana it is really nobody's else's business.
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Old 08-20-2008, 07:18 PM
 
4,628 posts, read 9,252,036 times
Reputation: 4237
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Want_Snow View Post
Last time I checked this is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!! Thousands of our soldiers have died and are dying to protect our freedoms, DO NOT EVER FORGET THAT! One freedom we have is freedom of choice and to be able to move where ever we want to. You have to realize not everyone is lucky enough to be born in Montana like you. So should we be punished and not move to somewhere we want to? Hell no... we have freedom of choice.

I understand about not wanting to change your way of life and values, but you have to realize not EVERYONE moving to Montana is looking to put up a shopping mall etc. Most of them were born and raised in a big city and DO NOT like and want to get away!! And they have that choice because we live in the best country in the World!!

GOD BLESS THE U.S.A. AND ALL OUR SOLDIERS WHO HAVE DIED AND WHO ARE FIGHTING AND DYING TO PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS!!!!!!!!
Good for you! That's the point, isn't it?

What's all this whining about McRanches, etc.....How they heck did they manage to buy the land in the first place? Oh, some one sold it to them, you say???

I know two money-hungry realtors - Montana natives - who reside in one of the most beautiful valleys in Montana. They "hoodwinked" an honest, down to earth man who had nearly a thousand acres. Paid him a ridiculous, paltry sum for the land. Because of their political connections with other Montana natives, the land is now parcelled out in 30 to 40 acre plots. How anxious are they for the cultivation of the Montana gentry? Pretty darned anxious, I'd say.

Greedy people are everywhere, and many good ol' Montana boys made a killing in selling off land. They got their's. Lay blame where it's due...not on newcomers, but on the people who allow the "McRanches", the strip malls, and the box stores to be built. Are you saying that native Montanans don't frequent these stores? They don't have to if they don't want to.

Grow up. Every time I check MT thread for pics, someone is always whining about 'don't change this or that', and blaming everybody under the sun except themselves. Montana people whine almost as much as the Alaskans. Is it a contest between the two forums - who can complain more?

I like that response, Joe Doer. BTW, my friends who live in Montana welcome new people with open arms, as do their neighbors. Good people - and native Montanans!
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,810,559 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Doer View Post

You seem to be upset at someone from the "outside" telling you how to live your life...and then you tell them how to live their life by telling them where they should or should not live. Maybe everyone should just mind their own business. If someone from Florida or California wants to move to Montana it is really nobody's else's business.
I'm not telling anyone where they should or should not live, and your right.. It's not my business where someone moves, what affects me is the cost increase and tax increases, land being gobbled up and access cut off, more traffic than the roads were built for etc... It happens, and I don't have to like it.
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,810,559 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeBee View Post
Good for you! That's the point, isn't it?

What's all this whining about McRanches, etc.....How they heck did they manage to buy the land in the first place? Oh, some one sold it to them, you say???

I know two money-hungry realtors - Montana natives - who reside in one of the most beautiful valleys in Montana. They "hoodwinked" an honest, down to earth man who had nearly a thousand acres. Paid him a ridiculous, paltry sum for the land. Because of their political connections with other Montana natives, the land is now parcelled out in 30 to 40 acre plots. How anxious are they for the cultivation of the Montana gentry? Pretty darned anxious, I'd say.
Good point, there is way too much of this kind of thing going on. It's really sad when a person would rip anyone off like that. I've got a friend that got hoodwinked like that by his own brother. (also natives) $$ does crazy things to people, and throughout history there has been a bit of madness around the rocky mountains... Seems to be outside money doing most of the damage though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeBee View Post
Greedy people are everywhere, and many good ol' Montana boys made a killing in selling off land. They got their's. Lay blame where it's due...not on newcomers, but on the people who allow the "McRanches", the strip malls, and the box stores to be built. Are you saying that native Montanans don't frequent these stores? They don't have to if they don't want to.
There is blame on both sides of the coin. Some of us don't frequent the big box stores... still doesn't seem to put a dent in their business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeBee View Post
Grow up. Every time I check MT thread for pics, someone is always whining about 'don't change this or that', and blaming everybody under the sun except themselves. Montana people whine almost as much as the Alaskans. Is it a contest between the two forums - who can complain more?
I think it's the Oregonians.. (chuckles) Just kidding.

Depends on who pays the most in taxes..

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeBee View Post
I like that response, Joe Doer. BTW, my friends who live in Montana welcome new people with open arms, as do their neighbors. Good people - and native Montanans!
Shouldn't judge a person who might just be blowing off some steam through posting on a discussion forum. If a guy can't gripe a bit because his views are now blocked with new subdivisions and multiplexes what can he gripe about!
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Old 08-20-2008, 10:23 PM
 
4,628 posts, read 9,252,036 times
Reputation: 4237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf232 View Post
I think it's the Oregonians.. (chuckles) Just kidding.
OK, I walked into that one!!!-


Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf232 View Post
Shouldn't judge a person who might just be blowing off some steam through posting on a discussion forum. If a guy can't gripe a bit because his views are now blocked with new subdivisions and multiplexes what can he gripe about!
Naw, I don't. The same thing is happening all over. Since I've been living in Portland, there's been so much construction in places where people used to take their horses riding. West Linn City Hall locale used to be a huge tree farm, with horse ranches, dairy ranches. Driving down the I-205 freeway from Portland to I-5 used to be full or very scenic beauty - the country. The hills are littered in houses now.

Oh, no!!! Now you've got me venting!!! Well, sure, blowing off steam on this forum is much better then drinking, driving crazy, or giving yourself an ulcer!

I guess the difference between us is that I don't believe you can honestly blame newcomers, or one particular state for your/our growth issues. Waste of energy.

OK, everybody sing along now.....

Lookin' out across this town
Kinda makes me wonder how
All the things that make us great
Got left so hard behind

This used to be a peaceful place
Decent folks hard workin' ways
Now they hide behind locked doors
Afraid to speak their minds

I think we need a gunslinger
Somebody tough to tame this town
I think we need a gunslinger
There'll be justice all around

J. Fogerty ~
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,810,559 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeBee View Post
Naw, I don't. The same thing is happening all over. Since I've been living in Portland, there's been so much construction in places where people used to take their horses riding. West Linn City Hall locale used to be a huge tree farm, with horse ranches, dairy ranches. Driving down the I-205 freeway from Portland to I-5 used to be full or very scenic beauty - the country. The hills are littered in houses now.

Oh, no!!! Now you've got me venting!!! Well, sure, blowing off steam on this forum is much better then drinking, driving crazy, or giving yourself an ulcer!
Feels good eh?! Definitely a better option than some of the alternatives. Plus it helps stubborn people like me see the other side sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeBee View Post
I guess the difference between us is that I don't believe you can honestly blame newcomers, or one particular state for your/our growth issues. Waste of energy.
I don't mean to sound like I'm blaming people individually.
I really am the type of person that is thankful for who and what I've got in my life, I don't need much and like to keep it simple. It's just frustrating to watch a place you love turn into someplace else, more traffic, more crime, more "gotta get mine" attitude. I need to go spend a week in a big city so I can come back and be more thankful.

You are right though...
It's a waste of energy to gripe so much, and I am guilty of spending to much time complaining about stuff I can't change.

It would be nice to find some middle ground with the folks that come in and bring their suburban ideals with them. Just seems like the $$ always wins and that's pretty sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeBee View Post
OK, everybody sing along now.....

Lookin' out across this town
Kinda makes me wonder how
All the things that make us great
Got left so hard behind

This used to be a peaceful place
Decent folks hard workin' ways
Now they hide behind locked doors
Afraid to speak their minds

I think we need a gunslinger
Somebody tough to tame this town
I think we need a gunslinger
There'll be justice all around

J. Fogerty ~
"Someone let the fences go
Wild eyed bunch moved in you know
Shootin' up the streets shoutin' everybody down
Dogs all runnin' loose"

Good tune!
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:15 AM
 
Location: NW Montana
6,258 posts, read 12,887,553 times
Reputation: 3429
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeBee View Post
OK, I walked into that one!!!-




Naw, I don't. The same thing is happening all over. Since I've been living in Portland, there's been so much construction in places where people used to take their horses riding. West Linn City Hall locale used to be a huge tree farm, with horse ranches, dairy ranches. Driving down the I-205 freeway from Portland to I-5 used to be full or very scenic beauty - the country. The hills are littered in houses now.

Oh, no!!! Now you've got me venting!!! Well, sure, blowing off steam on this forum is much better then drinking, driving crazy, or giving yourself an ulcer!

I guess the difference between us is that I don't believe you can honestly blame newcomers, or one particular state for your/our growth issues. Waste of energy.

OK, everybody sing along now.....

Lookin' out across this town
Kinda makes me wonder how
All the things that make us great
Got left so hard behind

This used to be a peaceful place
Decent folks hard workin' ways
Now they hide behind locked doors
Afraid to speak their minds

I think we need a gunslinger
Somebody tough to tame this town
I think we need a gunslinger
There'll be justice all around

J. Fogerty ~
First I agree with your sub title-they got the raw deal. curious how long you have been in metro, I packed it in when the land around Dammasch was chopped into a "village" with only one access out to I-5 past my house on a neighborhood street
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