Bordens Bar, Whitehall, MT (Great Falls, Bozeman: city hall, big house, to buy)

[NewLtDad]

I see a bar/restaurant available in Whitehall. The advertising says that there are 20 rooms upstairs, the restaurant downstairs, and the owners living at the location.

It seems to be a very quaint place. The town has only 1000 in population, and how does the town support the business? It is off I-90, but does it get any of that traffic?

I would like any help anyone has about the business or the town.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by NewLtDad

I see a bar/restaurant available in Whitehall. The advertising says that there are 20 rooms upstairs, the restaurant downstairs, and the owners living at the location.

It seems to be a very quaint place. The town has only 1000 in population, and how does the town support the business? It is off I-90, but does it get any of that traffic?

I would like any help anyone has about the business or the town.

I'll get this started for ya, while I don't know about this business specifically I've seen this type of thing around and found that the owners generally make out because they own the business and buildings outright and don't have to make much to pay the bills and if they have a good season they can sock it away to cover the bad times, otherwise it's just like owning a big house with taxes and utilities.

[TypicalCalifornian]

I have family in Montana that have owned similar business's in similar sized towns. As I've watched the ebb and flow of legal and cultural changes over the years I've come to believe :

1. the government has done everything it can to discourage drinking via taxes and watching these establishments for drunk driving. With the DUI limits rather low, that's going to be a drink or two for most people in many cases, and with the high prices maybe only a few nights a week. When I was a kid these kind of places would have many customers many nights throughout the week.
2. The gambling licenses are intended to replace some of the lost revenue from drinking. There are distinctions within gambling licenses one needs to understand as they are an important source of revenue.
3. restaurants are their own special case with high failure rates even for very accomplished operators.
4. as previously stated those who seem to make a go of the operations seem to own them outright and not have to make large payments to the seller for years.

Obviously without reviewing any of the financials the advice above sounds all negative so you should consider the amount of ignorance in the specifics I have. If you don't know how to dissect a financial statement you need someone to take you through these. I would not feel comfortable with P&L's unless they were prepared or reviewed by a CPA level person. Probably even better is to get some help from someone operating a similar business to speak to my above points with first hand expertise.

[lorelei2873]

I've been there. It's fine and you could definitely make a living. I have bartended in similarly sized towns near Whitehall for the last 12 years. Not true about the one or two drinks. Actually many drunk regulars in the bars around here.

I don't remember Borden's owning gaming machines when I was in there. You must have gaming machines to make it go, and you must promote gambling. I'd be more worried about the restaurant. It was nothing to write home about. The building might need some work, too.

Whitehall has a lot of people passing through and there are not too many bars there for the population. It's a well-known establishment. It's not a gold mine, but you could get by.

[bigtrees]

People drink beer in Montana these days?

Boy, jimj is right. A lot sure has changed since I left.

[NewLtDad]

So glad to hear from TypCalifornian and Loreili2873. I have owned businesses before, and you are exactly right. gotta do your homework. can go in pie in the sky. thanks. how did TypCalifornian get onto a Montana site? My God you must be bored or my marketing must be outstanding. I know all too well about drunks, cops, jail, etc. I did crim def work for many years, also investigated traffic accidents. prob very few cabs to use (ha). oh, the realtor sent me some financial stuff. really very interesting. makes you raise your eyebrows.

Lorili2873, it is great to be able to talk with someone who has been there. do you life in the area? do you know anything about the people running the place? It seems interesting. with a town of only 1000, they have to get $$$ from regulars. plus, they prob have to split the gambling take with the people who put in the machines. oh yeah, the building comes with it. If people are "passing thru" where are they going that would have them stop in? mealtime? After work it is alcohol. They might also regulate the number of gaming machines in each establishment. Some machines let you change the odds, pay out more, get more customers. One had washes the other.
Let me know if you know someone who knows the place pretty well, or let me know when you go back.

[lorelei2873]

I'm sorry. I don't know the owners. There was a lady who used to post on here from Whitehall. I wonder what happened to her. I have a friend who managed a different bar in Whitehall a few years back and now lives in Helena. I'll ask her more about it when I run into her; she'll probably have the scoop.

Whitehall is pretty centrally located in terms of being close to Butte, Helena, and Bozeman. A lot of people take road trips or go to Lewis and Clark caverns around there. We also have quite a few people who ride motorcycles in the summer and they seem to stop in places like that. People coming to Bozeman or Helena from Dillon will often drive through Whitehall instead of taking the freeway. I actually live in Helena but have bartended in various small towns in SW Montana for a long time. There are a lot of other little towns close to Whitehall, too. I think 1000 really does not accurately represent your potential customer base and also that cenus data you're quoting is 9 years old and that county has grown a lot in the last decade. I don't know about the food stuff. I think the food mostly would be regulars unless you built it up to have a really good reputation.

For example, even though I live in Helena, I (and many people I know) routinely drive to places like Chubby's in Clancy (15 miles away), the Willow Creek Cafe by Three Forks (70 ish miles away), the Oasis in Manhattan (about 75 miles away), the York Bar, the Land of Magic in Logan (65 miles) etc. People often used to drive out to the Marysville house (30 minutees from town) and the Dearborn Inn on the way to Great Falls when it was open (50 miles). But, you have to have a reputation as a destination spot. Borden's certainly does not have that now. People in SW Montana love to go on a road trip to eat. I'm talking mostly dinners and weekend lunches. But you have to have something like great steaks or fabulous burgers.

[Timberwolf232]

I smell another Californian looking for a small town business to buy... (No offense intended)

[NewLtDad]

Dear Mr. Timberwolf,

Evidently you must be downwind from something you are not fond of. The person typing this message is originally from central Florida, where we played some smash-mouth football, and lived in two other Southern states for a total of 55 years. I will challenge your assumption, and buy you a beer if we meet. I understand from what I have been reading about a bit of attitude of locals in you wonderful area with respect to what Southerners call "carpetbaggers". Look it up and you will see that prob is an accurate description of the attitude of locals to persons coming in to either take advantage or take over.
I have had enough drama battling city hall for my clients, and have even spent a year and a half apprending fugitives (some quietly, some not) and am looking for some peace. Who knows, maybe I could become an asset, a friend, and with my experience, maybe solve a problem or two.
SoCal is nice, and the women are like things you see in a museum; you cant touch it, it is pretty to look at, and you cannot take it home.
Lorelei, anything you can tell about the area would help. Maybe we can meet up with Timberwolf and see if he has something stuck to the bottom of his boot. That must be what he is smelling.

[Pintopal]

Originally Posted by NewLtDad

I see a bar/restaurant available in Whitehall. The advertising says that there are 20 rooms upstairs, the restaurant downstairs, and the owners living at the location.

It seems to be a very quaint place. The town has only 1000 in population, and how does the town support the business? It is off I-90, but does it get any of that traffic?

I would like any help anyone has about the business or the town.

I know the owners of Borden's in Whitehall and I believe it has been a "struggle" for them since the beginning of their ownership. The town is just too small to support that kind of operation for any big profits, and hoping for any drop-ins off the Interstate is hoping against hope. I haven't been down there for a long time but my thought about the place isn't positive. The buildings are old and not old in a "nice way". Sometimes old can be quaint ... not the case here.

They have music every weekend and on Sunday afternoons people come from all of the area to dance - mostly senior citizens. The dancing is fun and the place gets jam-packed, but I don't think their bar business helps much to pay for the band, as seniors tend to mostly drink pop, water. I don't know how it is on Saturday night.

The Whitehall area is nice if you are not looking for work or if you're retired and don't mind driving a ways to get to civilization.