wolves in montana (what's your 2 cents?) (ski resorts, real estate, leases)

[montanafarrier]

Wolves are good for .........ah.........um.........uh........well..... .uh......hmmmmmm......let me see now.............. uh...........target practice?

[jimj]

Originally Posted by michael11747

the point is there that there is no "food chain" but a "web of life" which we are all a part of. it is no longer "who is the top predator?" but "which species will affect us the most when it becomes extinct." i honestly believe the hunter mentality to be a vestigial part of the subconscious human psyche. carried over from aeons ago, before language. i love hunting, and i propone it. eradication of anything is the completely wrong way to look at a situation.

You and I are closer to agreement than you think if indeed eradication is your only concern. With a few exceptions (fire ants/african bees for example) I agree that eradication is not the right way to go and would never espouse that eradicating the wolf is the right thing to do unless it's in a place that historically it doesn't belong but was placed there.
The right thing to do IMO is to manage the wolf population just as we do deer,elk etc. Where I was going with the food chain thing, it's my opinion that humans come before animals if there's a question of survival not the other way around that some envirowackos espouse. The other thing that needs to be remembered is species go extinct (again remember the dinosaurs) and we shouldn't mess with that cycle either. The hard part is deciding what is responsible for the decline, man or nature and that's where our superior intellect should kick in.

[jimj]

I know this particular subject gets people all wound up almost as bad as church talk but we need to discuss this with civility and decorum or I'm sure the mods will close it down and issue infractions to the offending parties.

[bigtrees]

I'd like to say a few things as a native Montanan displaced in Seattle.

About the Native Montana outfitter who supports wolves: Outfitters are hired by out of state visitors to be tour guides of the great outdoors. Wolves are part of the attraction of the state for people from out of state, so no wolves = less business. So of course the outfitter wants wolves in Montana (for the same reason I want Boeing to get the tanker contract).

About enviromentalism: I've read in this thread about "diversity" and "web of life" and "improving riperian habitat." This is all pro+environmental mumbo jumbo that people from Seattle spout everyday to talk about protecting the environment. This isn't Montana speak in the least.

About the person that lives near the beach that wants to protect wolves: How would you feel if I started a shark and jellyfish protecting program? The thing is - of course you want to protect them because it's cool to protect things and the existance of wolves has no negative impact on your life. I could be a proponent of closing off all beaches because of litter and other issues - but that'd upset beach goers.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

[bluecountry]

Originally Posted by montanafarrier

Wolves are good for .........ah.........um.........uh........well..... .uh......hmmmmmm......let me see now.............. uh...........target practice?

So because they are inconvenient we should slaughter them?
Heck...mountains are inconvenient...they could be fertile farmland...as is the amazon...let's chop that down.
Wolves are a valuable member of the food chain who help manage the elk...and have been roaming the earth for a long, they deserve to do so in peace.
You sir are a selfish hypocrite.

[michael11747]

Originally Posted by jimj

You and I are closer to agreement than you think if indeed eradication is your only concern. With a few exceptions (fire ants/african bees for example) I agree that eradication is not the right way to go and would never espouse that eradicating the wolf is the right thing to do unless it's in a place that historically it doesn't belong but was placed there.
The right thing to do IMO is to manage the wolf population just as we do deer,elk etc. Where I was going with the food chain thing, it's my opinion that humans come before animals if there's a question of survival not the other way around that some envirowackos espouse. The other thing that needs to be remembered is species go extinct (again remember the dinosaurs) and we shouldn't mess with that cycle either. The hard part is deciding what is responsible for the decline, man or nature and that's where our superior intellect should kick in.

hey jim, yes i agree with you on this. finally a voice of reason. my main issue is this: i constantly hear this rhetoric from hunters about how they shoot wolves for target practice and how they would "make a wolf suffer" if they could get their hands on them. i hear this from people who are otherwise spot on and good people. i do not understand this mentality. i am for hunting and managing wolves. the wolf brings in tourist dollars.i would love for someone to do a study on how they impact the tourist industry. ranching is going to be displaced soon as a viable economy to keep people employed. i have seen it before. people buy second homes or decide to settle here in montana, taxes go up, laws and tax rebates are enacted which are pro builder, taxes go up again, businesses need to close their doors, and the area transforms into some kind of tourist/transplant hellhole. i would love for someone to argue with me on this. my family builds (sustainably) and remodels homes (sustainably) all over the country, and we have seen this garbage happen everywhere. and i am going to use eradication because it is pertinent here. some people in this thread, and even some of my friends think eradication is the answer. not only is this the wrong answer, it is counter intuitive. people always come before animals, and that is a given, but people also need to realize that wolves are killing mass quantities of elk because there was an over abundance of them, to the point where the elk have destroyed riparian habitat. now when the wolves are being reintroduced what are we seeing? more riparian habitat, healthier fish populations, a bounce back in raptor populations, etc. wolves are key to this ecosystem, and should be managed just like the elk are.

[michael11747]

Originally Posted by montanafarrier

Wolves are good for .........ah.........um.........uh........well..... .uh......hmmmmmm......let me see now.............. uh...........target practice?

you have not added anything to the conversation other than proving my point. they may be of no use to you, but wolves are a vital component of the greater yellowstone ecosystem. i am not going to waste my time trying to convince someone who obviously just likes to kill. that is not hunting, it is shameful.

[michael11747]

Originally Posted by grizzfan

You know, when I first looked at this thread and read all the up front apolgies, I said to my self, "self, here is a bleeding heart liberal, commie, pinko swine trying to pump up his low self esteem by taking on the wolf issue". And what do you know, I was right! The quote above was the proof.

Get real pilgrim. You 'manage' these god-forsaken creatures by killing them before they get my sheep and cattle or those of my neighbor. Time to head back for Vermont my friend. And don't try to tell me you were born and raised here.

hey grizzfan, this issue is bigger than you. sorry to bring you down from your cloud. to me it is funny how you can attack me by calling me a commie, liberal, pinko swine. can you explain to everyone here what that even means.

on the other hand i have done more for the state of montana than you ever have or will. i don't need to explain myself to you, since even talking to you is like talking to a fence post. you are obviously not capable of having a normal conversation with people.

there is a bigger picture here called management. do you really think management would be ineffective?????? if so, why don't you enlighten all of us as to why? do you really think if they issued 100 wolf tags this next year that everyone wouldn't be gone in oh, let's say, 1 day at most??? hell, i might sign up. i hunt, i fish, i hike, and i can see that the problem concerning elk has nothing to do with wolves, but the lack of human management.

and no i am not a commie, liberal, pinko whatever buzz words you want to use, i just enjoy seeing wild animals out there. aren't you allowed to shoot a wolf if they attack your livestock? maybe you should fine a new line of work if you can't manage your flock.

[michael11747]

Originally Posted by Stephan_K

How many posts can you use this word in ?!

You seem to be hell bent that everyone wants to eradicate the wolves. You seem to be arguing with someone... who is it ? Doesn't seem to be anyone here ! And also doesn't seem to be with any info you have found or that anyone else has posted.

What is your real objective here ???

what's your point? i think it is clear with who i am conversing with. i don't argue opinions with anyone. how does the old saying go "opinions are like...." i am not wasting my time trying to argue this point, as i have done many times earlier face to face with people who make these decisions.

what i am trying to do is get a grip as to why this eradication mentality prevails in an area where tourism is king. i am sorry to all the ranchers whose livestock are being massacared, but i would love to see all these ranchers who own or lease thousands of acres employ the majority of the state's residents. it is not feasible. are wolves vital to tourism? i would say no. but they bring in dollars regardless.

i guess i posted here originally to try to get an insight as to why eradication is the only answer to hunters and ranchers. and i can see you have not shed any light on the subject. thanks.

[michael11747]

Originally Posted by grizzfan

You know, when I first looked at this thread and read all the up front apolgies, I said to my self, "self, here is a bleeding heart liberal, commie, pinko swine trying to pump up his low self esteem by taking on the wolf issue". And what do you know, I was right! The quote above was the proof.

Get real pilgrim. You 'manage' these god-forsaken creatures by killing them before they get my sheep and cattle or those of my neighbor. Time to head back for Vermont my friend. And don't try to tell me you were born and raised here.

and trust me, if you want to kill a wolf legally, i am your best friend. if you have only been reading choice words from my posts, then let me rehash it for you. i am for the management of wolves. what makes you think i am from vermont? is that where all the liberal, pink swine commies come from? i guess i will avoid vermont then. how silly... you my friend are a walking and breathing stereotype, i hate to be the one to tell you that but sometimes it has to happen.