wolves in montana (what's your 2 cents?) (lawyers, home, salary)
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Who here said they want them eradicated ?????? Can't find a post like that ! So I ask you again, who are conversing (your term) with, with your eradication argument ? It's quite clear everyone here wants them MANAGED ! You trolling for something in particular ?
i don't think eradicated was used because of the limited vocabulary. hmm let's see what can be synonymous with eradication:
"kill em all"
"only good wolf is a dead one"
"shoot em all"
etc. or maybe i am mistaken. is this "montana speak" for management? please correct me.
so are you trying to say those terms are not synonymous with eradication? and what do they say about people who assume? apparently that would hold true for most of your cohorts here who think i am a liberal communist, which in itself is an impossibility.
this is not the kind of management i am talking about. sorry for being facetious, but it is hard to respond to people who want to attack you for your beliefs. i'm sure you can relate.
once again, let me say this: there will be no eradication or "management" of the wolves, unless they are taken off the endangered species list, which i think they should. but i will never understand why it is necessary to kill them all, and i want you all to realize how foolish it sounds to people when this is stated in such terms. but it is up to you how you portray yourselves. no one will ever take you seriously. no one will ever take any kind of extremist seriously. attack me all you want, i am only trying to help you. and i would be one of the first to put in for the tag if it's allowed.
One postive thing that anyone can do if you want to help the wolves in Montana is donate money to the ranchers who suffer losses due to the wolves. If you contribute say $5k a year to ranchers, you will have a lot of credibility to stand on that you believe in the wolves enough to pay for losses they incur.
Of course, this can't be a one time PR move, this would have to be a sincere effort to compensate those with losses and something done on an ongoing basis.
How does the natural change into the political? More mass death has happened through politics than from people, critters and their BIRTHRIGHT to live by their instincts.
None of the liberals, conservatives, the college know it all types, or the religious has ever accused a wolf of doing something wrong by eating because of their own instinct to hunt, but it's ironic how a homeless person might go to jail for "poaching", when they are just trying to eat without being forced to steal and exercising some of their birthright to survive. Sorry folks, if I get stuck somewhere and need to eat, hunting season or not I'll do what I need to to keep going and to feed my family. If that's an evil thing to you, tough. You might want some help if you found yourself in the same boat and I bet you wouldn't argue it then.
It pisses me off that some people blame humanity for everything. We are all apart of the same world, and just because you might have a PHD in a** kissing, hunting, conservation, or the human mind doesn't mean that you know more than every other person or creature living on this planet.
Every good student dies a good student... learning until they cross the river for the last time.
Law or not, if a wolf is on my livestock and I can do something about it, I will. If I see one outside of that, no worries. They are amazing critters and I'm glad to have been one of the people alive today that have seen 'em in the wild.
At the same time I sure as hell am tired of people moving out this way and saying they know better than the rest of us, and then ask us to bail them out when they (for example) drive into the borrow pit or get stuck in the drive up to the "ranch" they always dreamed of. Or call the law because they saw a bear. It's these same people that complain about what they don't like, but if they see someone else in the ditch they will drive on by.
I challenge you to not be "that person", and help someone dig out of the borrow pit or help em plow the drive. As for the wolf thing, why not let it be your business when it actually effects you instead of trying to get politics going about it. Politics are how wars start, and we have enough of them so let's give it a rest ok?
How does the natural change into the political? More mass death has happened through politics than from people, critters and their BIRTHRIGHT to live by their instincts.
None of the liberals, conservatives, the college know it all types, or the religious has ever accused a wolf of doing something wrong by eating because of their own instinct to hunt, but it's ironic how a homeless person might go to jail for "poaching", when they are just trying to eat without being forced to steal and exercising some of their birthright to survive. Sorry folks, if I get stuck somewhere and need to eat, hunting season or not I'll do what I need to to keep going and to feed my family. If that's an evil thing to you, tough. You might want some help if you found yourself in the same boat and I bet you wouldn't argue it then.
It pisses me off that some people blame humanity for everything. We are all apart of the same world, and just because you might have a PHD in a** kissing, hunting, conservation, or the human mind doesn't mean that you know more than every other person or creature living on this planet.
Every good student dies a good student... learning until they cross the river for the last time.
Law or not, if a wolf is on my livestock and I can do something about it, I will. If I see one outside of that, no worries. They are amazing critters and I'm glad to have been one of the people alive today that have seen 'em in the wild.
At the same time I sure as hell am tired of people moving out this way and saying they know better than the rest of us, and then ask us to bail them out when they (for example) drive into the borrow pit or get stuck in the drive up to the "ranch" they always dreamed of. Or call the law because they saw a bear. It's these same people that complain about what they don't like, but if they see someone else in the ditch they will drive on by.
I challenge you to not be "that person", and help someone dig out of the borrow pit or help em plow the drive. As for the wolf thing, why not let it be your business when it actually effects you instead of trying to get politics going about it. Politics are how wars start, and we have enough of them so let's give it a rest ok?
timberwolf, you almost talked some sense into me. finally someone who can have a normal conversation. i appreciate all of your points, and it is true i am not from here, but i have lived out here about as long as i have lived anywhere, and i can say that i consider this home now. but around bozeman today for example this is what i saw:
it snowed a lot here recently, about a foot, so needless to say we have a whole bunch of southerners getting stuck driving around town. now no knocks on the southerners, but they get stuck here all the time. it's a fact. but when i pulled over to "assess the situation" there were pedestrians there already digging out this woman's car. i thought it hilarious that no one was really from montana, but i, being the senior of the montana transplants since i have been here longer, commented on how polite our native neighbors are, and they wholeheartedly agree. so we had a group of people standing around, none of which was from montana, all helping out. i have many of these stories because i stop to help out whenever i can. it's a great way to meet people.
i have always thought montanans had a genuine respect for each other, as long as they don't tread on each other, and i think that is how it should be. but it honestly makes it hard for a dialogue about anything, or any idea which might be alien. i completely agree that if a wolf is killing livestock, go hunt him down. they learn quick. but when i hear my friends tell me stories about how they want to massacre whole packs of wolves, it seems kind of silly to me.
i am getting sick of this thread, i am sorry i ever brought it up.
timberwolf, you almost talked some sense into me. finally someone who can have a normal conversation. i appreciate all of your points, and it is true i am not from here, but i have lived out here about as long as i have lived anywhere, and i can say that i consider this home now. but around bozeman today for example this is what i saw:
it snowed a lot here recently, about a foot, so needless to say we have a whole bunch of southerners getting stuck driving around town. now no knocks on the southerners, but they get stuck here all the time. it's a fact. but when i pulled over to "assess the situation" there were pedestrians there already digging out this woman's car. i thought it hilarious that no one was really from montana, but i, being the senior of the montana transplants since i have been here longer, commented on how polite our native neighbors are, and they wholeheartedly agree. so we had a group of people standing around, none of which was from montana, all helping out. i have many of these stories because i stop to help out whenever i can. it's a great way to meet people.
i have always thought montanans had a genuine respect for each other, as long as they don't tread on each other, and i think that is how it should be. but it honestly makes it hard for a dialogue about anything, or any idea which might be alien. i completely agree that if a wolf is killing livestock, go hunt him down. they learn quick. but when i hear my friends tell me stories about how they want to massacre whole packs of wolves, it seems kind of silly to me.
i am getting sick of this thread, i am sorry i ever brought it up.
No worries.. It's a good topic, but as you see the whole thing goes deeper than just wolves.
I don't want to see the wolves massacred either, and even as a temporary hand to some of our prominent ranchers and new "land barons" I don't think they feel that way either.
I'm one of those guys that has the opportunity to work in lots of different settings with lots of different people. I can see how it would be hard for a person to come out here with dreams of " a river runs through it" or "legends of the fall", but the reality is that there are lots of working people... from mining to logging (two honorable trades)
I do have a hard time with real estate sales people, and new grads trying to change the world with new land management policies that don't take the time to work as a farm, log dog, or ranch hand first...
College is a double edged sword, and when a person builds up ideals it's hard to see new, or old ideas that work because there are certain expectations that get driven in without any actual experience.
I'm saying these things as both a military combat vet and someone who also did some time in college. For me it was better to just stay working vs. going after a masters or chasing the $$. (although I'd prefer the service to college any day of the week)
As for your statement about Montanans having general respect for each other, I'd say it's more a respect for boundaries, and the to each his own, but helping each other along the way type of mentality... It works in a small sense, but when it turns a different way it ruffles the feathers of a lot of people..
I wish I was one of the old schoolers that don't have a computer or a cell, but I am thankful to know and be kin to some of them, both to keep them from shooting first and asking questions later, and at the same time to be on the same side... Know what I mean?
i bet you would be surprised at how many of them there actually are. they teach your schoolchildren, they run your non-pofits, they manage and protect your forests, and they are from montana, from as far back as the first white baby born in the state (if you want to use the example of the outfitter i cited earlier).
So are you saying that teachers, people who run non-profits, and environmentalists who make our forests off limits to Montanans are better than than other Montanans?
That surely is an attitude from out of state. Especially the comment about people running non-profits.
So are you saying that teachers, people who run non-profits, and environmentalists who make our forests off limits to Montanans are better than than other Montanans?
That surely is an attitude from out of state. Especially the comment about people running non-profits.
nope i never said that. and i am sorry if you took it that way. what i meant was that there are native montanans, whose roots go back to the beginning of white settlement, and families who haven't been here that long are for the wolf management in southwest montana.
who said they make forests off limits??? as far as i know, a non-profit i work with pressured the forest service to open hyalite road here all winter this year for snowmobilers and ice climbers. if you're talking about the sierra club, well that is a whole 'nother topic i would probably agree with you on.
i can give you more examples, but i am tired of this thread.
No worries.. It's a good topic, but as you see the whole thing goes deeper than just wolves.
I don't want to see the wolves massacred either, and even as a temporary hand to some of our prominent ranchers and new "land barons" I don't think they feel that way either.
I'm one of those guys that has the opportunity to work in lots of different settings with lots of different people. I can see how it would be hard for a person to come out here with dreams of " a river runs through it" or "legends of the fall", but the reality is that there are lots of working people... from mining to logging (two honorable trades)
I do have a hard time with real estate sales people, and new grads trying to change the world with new land management policies that don't take the time to work as a farm, log dog, or ranch hand first...
College is a double edged sword, and when a person builds up ideals it's hard to see new, or old ideas that work because there are certain expectations that get driven in without any actual experience.
I'm saying these things as both a military combat vet and someone who also did some time in college. For me it was better to just stay working vs. going after a masters or chasing the $$. (although I'd prefer the service to college any day of the week)
As for your statement about Montanans having general respect for each other, I'd say it's more a respect for boundaries, and the to each his own, but helping each other along the way type of mentality... It works in a small sense, but when it turns a different way it ruffles the feathers of a lot of people..
I wish I was one of the old schoolers that don't have a computer or a cell, but I am thankful to know and be kin to some of them, both to keep them from shooting first and asking questions later, and at the same time to be on the same side... Know what I mean?
fair enough, and i would never tell someone what to do or how to think. i try to mediate when i can, but there is more emotion tied into montana land and wildlife issues than i have ever seen, anywhere else except for maybe alaska. it makes talk about this kind of thing just about impossible.
here is my problem. i hate the real estate market here. hate it. it is shameful, inefficient, wasteful, and filled with greed. i admit, i have dabbled in real estate quite a bit here, but i remodel homes in a "green" way as a hobby. and i use recycled materials, sustainable materials, and i can take them off the grid right now if i wanted to and be fine.
with that said, the non-profits i mentioned earlier are very involved in land management in montana, especially south west montana. i could rattle off a dozen, with which you folks are most likely familiar with. but all hunters see these land management policies achieve is to shut off the forests and limit access. now i might be generalizing, but bear with me here... let's just ask the question of what would have happened if ted turner didn't buy the quarter million acres here in gallatin valley? i can tell you with almost complete certainty that it would be prime real estate, and would have streets with silly names like "big elk way" or "cowboy heaven" as we have seen in big sky. these names given to these streets by city people who move here ruin the very thing the streets are named after.
how ridiculous is it to see a community called elk grove. there's no longer any hint of elk in the place. take the name of any subdivision, and try it.
so now we are left at an impasse. the land needs to be protected, but who is going to protect it? the FED? would you really rather have them manage it? people don't want out-of-staters managing the place, and i agree, but they are the staunchest opponents to development in the area. i think the ranching community, activists, and hunters are all the same shade of green.
most people here are now from out-of-state. luckily they want to keep this area wild and open to the public. the few who buy homes in the mountains, don't make it there for very long. their homes always go up for sale, and they are beautiful, but i would never consider one of these homes if ihad the money because of the stigma which comes with the ownership of them.
Ok Folks, let's try to keep this post civil... I have had to go in and delete several personal attacks, off topic, or unproductive argumentative posts that are just fanning the flames....
If this warning is not headed I will have to shut this thread down...
Thanks for your cooperation and understanding..
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