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Old 09-21-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,570,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzfan View Post
China is increasing their military capabilities on land, air and sea at an alarming rate and a country of 1+ billion people that is essentially run by the military cannot be ignored as a potential threat. On the otherhand our forthcoming valiant leader will be able to talk any potential hostilities out of them!
And what happens when we no longer have anything left to PAY China with? The Chinese will tell you to your face that all this capitalism is meant to suck all the wealth out of the West, and after that it's back to their old ways.

If we dismantle our strike capability, there is nothing left to discourage them from overrunning us at their leisure. (So much the easier as we disarm more and more citizens, ensuring that there won't be a guerrilla defense force in the event of overwhelming assault, either.)

These defense systems are already paid for, and other than some relatively minimal upkeep (by people we already pay to be in the military), they cost us nothing -- so dismantling them is an expense, not a savings.

And it's damned foolish to assume that because our old enemies are playing "Good Neighbours" that they'll stay good neighbours forever. It's also incredibly foolish to assume that no other enemies will ever arise, as if we have total and permanent control over every ambitious government on the planet.

Furthermore, one of the deterrents against other countries going to fullscale war with one other is that WE can knock both their heads together (sometimes it's GOOD to have an 800 pound gorilla on the block!) I suspect this is all that has kept Pakistan and India from nuking one another long since, and quite probably all that's kept North Korea from nuking South Korea.

======

Occurs to me that were MT to secede, contracting with other states to be covered by our defense umbrella could bring in some revenue, or could be used as trade leverage. My cynical little voice adds "but if D.C. dismantles it first, they've removed much of a state's potential for successful secession".

.
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:07 AM
 
Location: Tempe AZ.
7 posts, read 19,182 times
Reputation: 13
Default Montana Missile Silos..

No there not being converted to homes.. hahaha. Malmstrom AFB..is a Minute Man Base. There are 20 LCF's ( Launch Control Facalities) Each one has 10 LF's (The Missile in the Hole) There are 200 Silo's in Montana..PS.. this is not classified material.. since you can just go around and count them..
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:24 PM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,019,216 times
Reputation: 3333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
And what happens when we no longer have anything left to PAY China with? The Chinese will tell you to your face that all this capitalism is meant to suck all the wealth out of the West, and after that it's back to their old ways.

If we dismantle our strike capability, there is nothing left to discourage them from overrunning us at their leisure. (So much the easier as we disarm more and more citizens, ensuring that there won't be a guerrilla defense force in the event of overwhelming assault, either.)


.
Hahah, this is obviously written by someone who knows nothing about the Chinese. You probably think that a secret USSR still exists and that the breakup of the Soviet Union was just a ruse to get us to disarm. You are right about one thing, the Chinese do want to suck all of the wealth out of the west, but it is to make themselves rich. Communism is dead and buried in that nation and always will be. Having been there several times I can tell you that the average Chinese is far more capitalistic and consumer driven that even Americans. If anything it is becoming a fault for them(just like us, they've become obsessed with buying too much crap they don't really need).
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,570,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
Hahah, this is obviously written by someone who knows nothing about the Chinese. You probably think that a secret USSR still exists and that the breakup of the Soviet Union was just a ruse to get us to disarm. You are right about one thing, the Chinese do want to suck all of the wealth out of the west, but it is to make themselves rich. Communism is dead and buried in that nation and always will be. Having been there several times I can tell you that the average Chinese is far more capitalistic and consumer driven that even Americans. If anything it is becoming a fault for them(just like us, they've become obsessed with buying too much crap they don't really need).
The business where my sister is a full partner has projects in China. One of them was building a house for some Chinese business magnate ... the house cost $6MILLION in US dollars. So yeah, they're busy getting rich. But if you think the mindset that let communism flourish is gone, you need to look again. They have no problem with simply taking what they want, if it's undefended. Ask Tibet (which China wants because it's the source for most of China's water) if they'd prefer not to be a subject nation.... if you can get past the Great Firewall of China, and if your informant isn't arrested for speaking to you.

And as I said -- just because a country playing Good Neighbour today is no guarantee that its friendly gov't won't be toppled in the future. Dismantling national defense is just like disarming the citizens -- it makes you both a tempting target and unable to defend yourself in-the-event. It also makes you unable to defend your friends.

As someone once put it -- trust your neighbours, but mend your fences.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:15 PM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,019,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
The business where my sister is a full partner has projects in China. One of them was building a house for some Chinese business magnate ... the house cost $6MILLION in US dollars. So yeah, they're busy getting rich. But if you think the mindset that let communism flourish is gone, you need to look again. They have no problem with simply taking what they want, if it's undefended. Ask Tibet (which China wants because it's the source for most of China's water) if they'd prefer not to be a subject nation.... if you can get past the Great Firewall of China, and if your informant isn't arrested for speaking to you.

And as I said -- just because a country playing Good Neighbour today is no guarantee that its friendly gov't won't be toppled in the future. Dismantling national defense is just like disarming the citizens -- it makes you both a tempting target and unable to defend yourself in-the-event. It also makes you unable to defend your friends.

As someone once put it -- trust your neighbours, but mend your fences.
Don't confuse authoritarianism with communism. The two are not linked. Chinese culture has always been on the authoritative side, it pre-dates communism by a few millennium. Beside, we have plenty of taking of property here. Ask anyone who has been a victim of eminent domain. I'm also not advocating trusting the Chinese, as we shouldn't. I just don't think they some sinister threat as some do. They have their own interest, and like any other country the will put those interest before everyone else. We use our military to impose our will were we can, and we shouldn't be surprised when other nations start to do the same. The fear I have with the Chinese, and Indians aren't fair behind, is that their sheer size will push them to become aggressive towards natural resources. It takes a lot of water, oil, and food to feed a billion people. So they may have no intention of starting a war over ideological goals, a battle over oil or other resource may push us towards direct conflict with them.
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Old 08-19-2010, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,358,044 times
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I fail to see what this conversation has to do with Missile silos in Montana.
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,570,254 times
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I think it has to do with whether we should KEEP the missile silos that are in Montana, and if so (or if not), WHY. What impact do they have on Montana itself? Absolutely none, other than providing a few military jobs.

I think it's damned silly to throw away something you've already paid for, especially when you cannot know for sure that you'll never need it again. And silos don't do any harm by just existing.
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Old 08-20-2010, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,358,044 times
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Part of the original SALT agreement was to do away with x number of missiles and render the silo's inoperable.

I was living in South Dakota at that time. And yes, several of them were sold after being gutted. A couple were made into homes. They had pictures and a big full page write up in the Rapid City Journal. They looked nice.
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Old 08-20-2010, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,570,254 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Part of the original SALT agreement was to do away with x number of missiles and render the silo's inoperable.

I was living in South Dakota at that time. And yes, several of them were sold after being gutted. A couple were made into homes. They had pictures and a big full page write up in the Rapid City Journal. They looked nice.
SALT was one of those things that makes great sense if you're the underdog, and is insane if you're the top dog. When I become an evil overlord, I'll never sign any stupid treaties. But anyway...

Occasionally a silo comes on the real estate market, and when they do, they're expensive. Here's a few examples (scroll down to the silos) and yes these prices are typical!!! Missile Base Properties for Sale
Here's a bunch of detail on one of the listed properties: The Most Unique Real Estate In The World
Here's a story about living in a silo: http://www.nateferguson.com/silo.html
and another long article with pictures, if you can get them to show up:
Missile Silo Fixer-Upper Now Swanky Bachelor Pad | Raw File or
Cold War Bunker Becomes Modern Mansion

There's an empty silo on my uncle's ranch, never had a missile in it, but did wind up full of water. I gather there are a lot of these north of Great Falls, that were dug and concreted but never occupied. Don't fall in.
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Old 08-20-2010, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
11,820 posts, read 15,435,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
Having been there several times I can tell you that the average Chinese is far more capitalistic and consumer driven that even Americans. If anything it is becoming a fault for them(just like us, they've become obsessed with buying too much crap they don't really need).
Do you think they would buy back the cheap a** tools they flooded our market with? I've got a few trash wrenches I'd love to ship back to them.
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