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Perhaps, but be careful they don't get any power. I found the first post of this thread interesting as a Vermonter, because my state was invaded by tens of thousands of these hippies in the 60's and 70's. They weren't taken seriously by VT'ers. However they got into politics and took over the state to get what they wanted. Now the taxes are sky high, property not close to affordable, they chase any job away they can, they treat the state as a big social experiment and cater to various special interest groups, and at one point suggested the whole state be turned into a park. They turned the state into a playground for the rich leftist yuppies from NY, MA, etc. Be careful lest your state be destroyed.
Oh yes, you are absolutely right. Fringies are just fringies until they discover politics, but then they become a major threat to our way of life.
I read all these posts about bashing "outsiders" moving to Montana, and let me say I have first hand experience with people ruining my home state of VT. Here is how to NOT ruin things if you move from NY, NJ, MA, IL, CA to a rural state.
1) Refuse to pay $350K for that new 3 Br rancher. Tell the seller that it is only worth $120K and that is all you will pay. If you are willing (and can) pay overinflated prices you have just ruined the market for someone who can only afford a reasonable mortgage. Build simple, cheap and green. The locals will respect you for it (no McMansions).
2) Leave your "liberal" mentality in CA! This does not mean you have to like Bush or Rush. People in the rural areas generally don't want extreme left or right thinking/politics. They are mostly center of the road pro-constitution.
3) Don't get involved in politics. Let the state be run the way it has been. If you like right wing bible thumping move to Mississippi or Tennesse. If you like diversity (gang-bangers and hip hop) move to LA. If you like constitutional freedom move to ID, MT, VT. There are states that match your like and dislikes. It is a big country, but don't move to an area to change things.
4) Rural people own and carry handguns for self defense. If you don't like it stay in NY City where it is safe under Mayor Bloomberg. We don't want a police heavy state in Montana or Vermont!
5) Subarus, Volvos, Birkinstocks, North Face, Latte do not belong in rural areas. It is like wiping the greed and excesses in the faces of the locals. This does not mean you need to shop at Walmart for your fashions and wear a dirty cammo baseball hat. If you move here buy a utilitarian vehicle (Jeep, Small Pick-up Etc), get some new Carharts, a woodstove and live simply. Country does not mean being a redneck. Just dress down and be humble, not loud and pretentious. Save your cash for future emergencies. Greed is not welcome in the simple country lifestyle!
6) Don't blast hip-hop or wear your pants around your ankles. NO ONE here wants to hear it, believe me!
I'm sure a lot of Good Ol Boys in Montana will tell these outsiders not to pay $350,000 just like they did in Arizona or Texas. They didn't They will continue to develop and invite outsiders with money in to buy until they are the minority and Montana turns Blue. Then the outsiders will want to keep more outsiders out. At some point it will be over built and prices will collapse.
I'm sure if someone comes and offers you triple what your house is worth you'll turn him down
He's saying that if you like the music we like, if you drive old trucks like us, if you dress and talk like us you will be fine. Don't come here thinking you have any freedom of choice or expression. One more thing, speak only when spoken too. Welcome.
So, basically I would be moving my family to the town that was in the movie "Footloose" ?
This isn't actually in response to any particular post. Just a couple observations and thoughts. I went to college in bozeman in the 70's. Granted, a while ago. I often read the Chronicle online to see what's up, despite the heartache it causes me. What's up is population, prices, and crime. I went back, for one day, a couple years ago, and what little
foolish hope that was left in my heart was promptly stomped into the ground. Seemingly, every piece of land large enough to fit any type of building on was being developed. While the population of bozeman proper is still in the 25,000 range, there are about another 100,000 people infesting the county. When I was there before, there was no Walmart, Kmart, Target, or other X-mart. This "outrage" has apparently been rectified. To the extreme. It, somewhat appropriately, started raining while I was walking around so I got on one the small buses they now have. There were six of us on the bus. The bus driver, me, the 2 russian guys behind me ( speaking russian ) and the 2 arab women, in full garb, in front of me. ( speaking, of course, arabic ) I was tempted to pinch myself to make sure I was awake. I rode around a while till I was painfully aware that the bozeman of my memories was no longer there. It wasn't just the construction, and the "marts", and the crime, and the Aspen like prices. There was something else, more important, missing. There was a "feel" that the old bozeman used to have. A common thread that wound through all of us. The thing that, when we told people where we were going ... to the middle of nowhere ... and they invariably said ... "you're going WHERE?" ... well, it was the thing that made all of us just smile. It was what made us go from "there" to here. That feeling is gone now. The people who go to bozeman now, probably for quite a while now, want to be "here" - when the mood strikes them - but without actually leaving "there". And they're crowding, and pricing, the "old school'ers" out. Its happening in numerous college towns around the west.
And they're all sliding down the same slippery slope. And there's no stopping it. I'm just glad I was there to experience how it used to be. Simpler, ... gloriously simpler. And better.
Now, like the rest of the country .... and much of the world .... they have to be everything,
to everybody. But if you strive to be ... insist on being ... everything, you just end up being
nothing. You end up losing your identity, your distinctive voice, in a sea of voices. Congratulations, bozeman. You're just like everyone else now.
...Save me from western college towns who feel the need to show the world how "sophisticated" they are. Even if it means destroying who they are.
...Save me from college administrators, and teachers, who look down their noses at us, and view America with disdain. And who take young freshmen and turn them into self-hating,
america-hating, graduates and call it teaching them to think. Graduates who can no longer see beyond the end of their nose, and do everything BUT think.
...Save me from NEA high school teachers who do the prep work on THEIR students before they send them off to the colleges.
...Save me from colleges, and their coaches, who will sell their school, their town, and their souls for more wins in a season. Who import inner city troublemakers, many already with records, to our towns because they can run faster. And when they behave here as they did in their home cities, ( suprize !! ), and get in trouble, the coach sticks his head in the sand and sees nothing but a "troubled" (but fast) kid who is worth saving and just "needs our help". ( and one of our uniforms ) The college says "we have to do better ...", and then they both go back and run the same play again .... and again ... and again. The hell with the local town, they're just lucky the school is there. And the students feel no real allegiance to the town.
...Save me from the students, who should know better. But that would take some actual thinking, and they're much to busy for that. And its much easier, and takes much less effort, to just go along with what's popular.
...Save me from children voting. I believe it was in the 2004 election where it turned out that something like 24% of the 18 - 20 yr old voters learned who to vote for from bruce springsteen. I suppose that IS much easier than actually doing some honest investigating on your own and making your own INFORMED decision. But then, I guess that's why they call them children. Its not their fault we gave them the vote.
...Save me from politicians, and a media, who will try - all to often successfully - to make us feel SOLELY guilty for ALL the ills of the world. And responsible for EVERYONE'S behavior,
and welfare. And that its not equal opportunity that really matters .... its equal results.
...Save me from a population that will sit by, some with their head in the sand, some with their head up.... (well, you know where. ), and watch their country actively turn itself into a third world nation. But then, as they've been told, its what we deserve, and the only fair thing to do. And besides, its not really happening. Now go watch another episode of " ? ".
...Save me from the same population who will close their eyes and elect a pied piper, and then blindly follow him as plays the tunes they want to hear....and leads them off the cliff.
...And mostly, save me from continuing to give a damn, when I know there's no stopping this train.
I apologize to all for getting carried away. This actually did start out as some thoughts on bozeman. But Montana still arouses a passion in me. I just wish I was there. I hear that Lewistown is nice.
Now, like the rest of the country .... and much of the world .... they have to be everything, to everybody. But if you strive to be ... insist on being ... everything, you just end up being nothing. You end up losing your identity, your distinctive voice, in a sea of voices. Congratulations, bozeman. You're just like everyone else now.
You nailed it. And it's happening everywhere. This is a price and penalty of "growth", as contrasted to stability.
Here's another example on a much smaller scale, but consider what happens when every business in town follows this example:
We have two Albertson's groceries here. One is middle-aged, and when you walk in the door, you know you're in an Albertson's store, without question -- you don't need to see the sign. It has its own distinct feel, the sort that builds customer loyalty because it's distinct from the crowd.
The other is brand new, and when you walk in the door... it's like being in an upscale Walmart. Generic superstore type A. You can't tell what chain the store belongs to without inspecting the sign out front.
When I go to Albertson's, I expect to be in an Albertson's. If I wanted to shop at Walmart, I'd shop at Walmart in the first place.
This isn't actually in response to any particular post. Just a couple observations and thoughts. I went to college in bozeman in the 70's. Granted, a while ago. I often read the Chronicle online to see what's up, despite the heartache it causes me. What's up is population, prices, and crime. I went back, for one day, a couple years ago, and what little
foolish hope that was left in my heart was promptly stomped into the ground. Seemingly, every piece of land large enough to fit any type of building on was being developed. While the population of bozeman proper is still in the 25,000 range, there are about another 100,000 people infesting the county. When I was there before, there was no Walmart, Kmart, Target, or other X-mart. This "outrage" has apparently been rectified. To the extreme. It, somewhat appropriately, started raining while I was walking around so I got on one the small buses they now have. There were six of us on the bus. The bus driver, me, the 2 russian guys behind me ( speaking russian ) and the 2 arab women, in full garb, in front of me. ( speaking, of course, arabic ) I was tempted to pinch myself to make sure I was awake. I rode around a while till I was painfully aware that the bozeman of my memories was no longer there. It wasn't just the construction, and the "marts", and the crime, and the Aspen like prices. There was something else, more important, missing. There was a "feel" that the old bozeman used to have. A common thread that wound through all of us. The thing that, when we told people where we were going ... to the middle of nowhere ... and they invariably said ... "you're going WHERE?" ... well, it was the thing that made all of us just smile. It was what made us go from "there" to here. That feeling is gone now. The people who go to bozeman now, probably for quite a while now, want to be "here" - when the mood strikes them - but without actually leaving "there". And they're crowding, and pricing, the "old school'ers" out. Its happening in numerous college towns around the west.
And they're all sliding down the same slippery slope. And there's no stopping it. I'm just glad I was there to experience how it used to be. Simpler, ... gloriously simpler. And better.
Now, like the rest of the country .... and much of the world .... they have to be everything,
to everybody. But if you strive to be ... insist on being ... everything, you just end up being
nothing. You end up losing your identity, your distinctive voice, in a sea of voices. Congratulations, bozeman. You're just like everyone else now.
...Save me from western college towns who feel the need to show the world how "sophisticated" they are. Even if it means destroying who they are.
...Save me from college administrators, and teachers, who look down their noses at us, and view America with disdain. And who take young freshmen and turn them into self-hating,
america-hating, graduates and call it teaching them to think. Graduates who can no longer see beyond the end of their nose, and do everything BUT think.
...Save me from NEA high school teachers who do the prep work on THEIR students before they send them off to the colleges.
...Save me from colleges, and their coaches, who will sell their school, their town, and their souls for more wins in a season. Who import inner city troublemakers, many already with records, to our towns because they can run faster. And when they behave here as they did in their home cities, ( suprize !! ), and get in trouble, the coach sticks his head in the sand and sees nothing but a "troubled" (but fast) kid who is worth saving and just "needs our help". ( and one of our uniforms ) The college says "we have to do better ...", and then they both go back and run the same play again .... and again ... and again. The hell with the local town, they're just lucky the school is there. And the students feel no real allegiance to the town.
...Save me from the students, who should know better. But that would take some actual thinking, and they're much to busy for that. And its much easier, and takes much less effort, to just go along with what's popular.
...Save me from children voting. I believe it was in the 2004 election where it turned out that something like 24% of the 18 - 20 yr old voters learned who to vote for from bruce springsteen. I suppose that IS much easier than actually doing some honest investigating on your own and making your own INFORMED decision. But then, I guess that's why they call them children. Its not their fault we gave them the vote.
...Save me from politicians, and a media, who will try - all to often successfully - to make us feel SOLELY guilty for ALL the ills of the world. And responsible for EVERYONE'S behavior,
and welfare. And that its not equal opportunity that really matters .... its equal results.
...Save me from a population that will sit by, some with their head in the sand, some with their head up.... (well, you know where. ), and watch their country actively turn itself into a third world nation. But then, as they've been told, its what we deserve, and the only fair thing to do. And besides, its not really happening. Now go watch another episode of " ? ".
...Save me from the same population who will close their eyes and elect a pied piper, and then blindly follow him as plays the tunes they want to hear....and leads them off the cliff.
...And mostly, save me from continuing to give a damn, when I know there's no stopping this train.
I apologize to all for getting carried away. This actually did start out as some thoughts on bozeman. But Montana still arouses a passion in me. I just wish I was there. I hear that Lewistown is nice.
I was born and raised in Bozeman, and left it in the 1990s for many of the reasons you so eloquently described.
It was, and is, like watching some grand wonderful person you knew and loved die of cancer, slowly, painfully, bit by bit until nothing is left but the memory.
But now it is called "Progress" and is supposed to be glorious. Bullfeathers!
Give me the Bozeman of 30 years ago when you could drive for just a couple minutes and be way outside town. When you could see elk down on the Sourdough, or a bear on your way to Hylite.
Places I used to go gopher hunting with my friends are now paved over. Land that could grow spectacular crops year after year, are now a Wal-Mart.
There used to be a little seperation between Bozeman and Belgrade, now you might as well look for the signs to tell you when you have left one and are in the other.
The City in the Mountains we knew and loved is dead, and won't ever be back the way it was.
Welcome to Boz Angeles.
That was a really awsome post! I am heartfelt that this is what is happening everywhere!! All of the beautiful land, mountains and oceans are all being destroyed. Its a very sad train, one that if I could help change I sure would!!!
This isn't actually in response to any particular post. Just a couple observations and thoughts. I went to college in bozeman in the 70's. Granted, a while ago. I often read the Chronicle online to see what's up, despite the heartache it causes me. What's up is population, prices, and crime. I went back, for one day, a couple years ago, and what little
foolish hope that was left in my heart was promptly stomped into the ground. Seemingly, every piece of land large enough to fit any type of building on was being developed. While the population of bozeman proper is still in the 25,000 range, there are about another 100,000 people infesting the county. When I was there before, there was no Walmart, Kmart, Target, or other X-mart. This "outrage" has apparently been rectified. To the extreme. It, somewhat appropriately, started raining while I was walking around so I got on one the small buses they now have. There were six of us on the bus. The bus driver, me, the 2 russian guys behind me ( speaking russian ) and the 2 arab women, in full garb, in front of me. ( speaking, of course, arabic ) I was tempted to pinch myself to make sure I was awake. I rode around a while till I was painfully aware that the bozeman of my memories was no longer there. It wasn't just the construction, and the "marts", and the crime, and the Aspen like prices. There was something else, more important, missing. There was a "feel" that the old bozeman used to have. A common thread that wound through all of us. The thing that, when we told people where we were going ... to the middle of nowhere ... and they invariably said ... "you're going WHERE?" ... well, it was the thing that made all of us just smile. It was what made us go from "there" to here. That feeling is gone now. The people who go to bozeman now, probably for quite a while now, want to be "here" - when the mood strikes them - but without actually leaving "there". And they're crowding, and pricing, the "old school'ers" out. Its happening in numerous college towns around the west.
And they're all sliding down the same slippery slope. And there's no stopping it. I'm just glad I was there to experience how it used to be. Simpler, ... gloriously simpler. And better.
Now, like the rest of the country .... and much of the world .... they have to be everything,
to everybody. But if you strive to be ... insist on being ... everything, you just end up being
nothing. You end up losing your identity, your distinctive voice, in a sea of voices. Congratulations, bozeman. You're just like everyone else now.
...Save me from western college towns who feel the need to show the world how "sophisticated" they are. Even if it means destroying who they are.
...Save me from college administrators, and teachers, who look down their noses at us, and view America with disdain. And who take young freshmen and turn them into self-hating,
america-hating, graduates and call it teaching them to think. Graduates who can no longer see beyond the end of their nose, and do everything BUT think.
...Save me from NEA high school teachers who do the prep work on THEIR students before they send them off to the colleges.
...Save me from colleges, and their coaches, who will sell their school, their town, and their souls for more wins in a season. Who import inner city troublemakers, many already with records, to our towns because they can run faster. And when they behave here as they did in their home cities, ( suprize !! ), and get in trouble, the coach sticks his head in the sand and sees nothing but a "troubled" (but fast) kid who is worth saving and just "needs our help". ( and one of our uniforms ) The college says "we have to do better ...", and then they both go back and run the same play again .... and again ... and again. The hell with the local town, they're just lucky the school is there. And the students feel no real allegiance to the town.
...Save me from the students, who should know better. But that would take some actual thinking, and they're much to busy for that. And its much easier, and takes much less effort, to just go along with what's popular.
...Save me from children voting. I believe it was in the 2004 election where it turned out that something like 24% of the 18 - 20 yr old voters learned who to vote for from bruce springsteen. I suppose that IS much easier than actually doing some honest investigating on your own and making your own INFORMED decision. But then, I guess that's why they call them children. Its not their fault we gave them the vote.
...Save me from politicians, and a media, who will try - all to often successfully - to make us feel SOLELY guilty for ALL the ills of the world. And responsible for EVERYONE'S behavior,
and welfare. And that its not equal opportunity that really matters .... its equal results.
...Save me from a population that will sit by, some with their head in the sand, some with their head up.... (well, you know where. ), and watch their country actively turn itself into a third world nation. But then, as they've been told, its what we deserve, and the only fair thing to do. And besides, its not really happening. Now go watch another episode of " ? ".
...Save me from the same population who will close their eyes and elect a pied piper, and then blindly follow him as plays the tunes they want to hear....and leads them off the cliff.
...And mostly, save me from continuing to give a damn, when I know there's no stopping this train.
I apologize to all for getting carried away. This actually did start out as some thoughts on bozeman. But Montana still arouses a passion in me. I just wish I was there. I hear that Lewistown is nice.
None of us needs to be saved from any of the things you talk about. You want a world where people are afraid of ideas. Afraid of learning. Afraid of knowledge. Afraid of things they are too afraid to try to understand.
Fear nested in fear. It's the reason we're stuck in one illegitimate war and losing another one that should have been over with 5 years ago.
My generation is now paying for the mistakes of the boomers who tried to solve all the problems in the world by dropping bombs on brown people and naively believing that would do the trick. People who tried to save themselves by buying bigger guns and more locks. People who were too damn weak to do anything but be afraid - to feel the need to be "saved."
We're paying for the economics that gave all the advantages to the banks and insurance companies without any accountability (see subprime mortgage crisis).
We're paying for your generation being too afraid to do what was necessary, instead of doing what was popular.
I'd be afraid if I were you too. But I'm not. Because I've bothered to try to understand things foreign to me. I don't reject ideas just because Pat Robertson or Sean Hannity told me they were bad. I think. I observe. I read between the lines. I see through the lies of "preemptive war" and "don't ask don't tell" and "intelligent design" and all the fakery.
I'm not afraid. I don't need to be "saved." And neither do you.
You need to wake up and face the reality that there is no black and white. There never was. Which is why you're afraid to begin with. The sooner that happens, the sooner we can get ourselves out of this mess we're in. The sooner we can put the "train" back on the tracks.
None of us needs to be saved from any of the things you talk about. You want a world where people are afraid of ideas. Afraid of learning. Afraid of knowledge. Afraid of things they are too afraid to try to understand.
Fear nested in fear. It's the reason we're stuck in one illegitimate war and losing another one that should have been over with 5 years ago.
My generation is now paying for the mistakes of the boomers who tried to solve all the problems in the world by dropping bombs on brown people and naively believing that would do the trick. People who tried to save themselves by buying bigger guns and more locks. People who were too damn weak to do anything but be afraid - to feel the need to be "saved."
We're paying for the economics that gave all the advantages to the banks and insurance companies without any accountability (see subprime mortgage crisis).
We're paying for your generation being too afraid to do what was necessary, instead of doing what was popular.
I'd be afraid if I were you too. But I'm not. Because I've bothered to try to understand things foreign to me. I don't reject ideas just because Pat Robertson or Sean Hannity told me they were bad. I think. I observe. I read between the lines. I see through the lies of "preemptive war" and "don't ask don't tell" and "intelligent design" and all the fakery.
I'm not afraid. I don't need to be "saved." And neither do you.
You need to wake up and face the reality that there is no black and white. There never was. Which is why you're afraid to begin with. The sooner that happens, the sooner we can get ourselves out of this mess we're in. The sooner we can put the "train" back on the tracks.
Your philosophical diatribe is one of the reasons this thread was started.
Whether someone agrees with Tiberius or not, he spent a good part of his life in Montana. His comments reflect a nostalgia for Montana of the past, and he maintains a reverence for the values of Montanans.
In contrast, your post is nothing more than a cauldron of political vitriol.
If you've got something to say with relevance to Montana, say it. If not, take your cerebral feces to the political forum.
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How to get carried away in a reply....
