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Old 11-01-2010, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,568,785 times
Reputation: 2952

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mt-7 View Post
Yes I can see that but I do not see us as being able to not tap into what we have. We are dying over here as it is.
Yep... at some point you have to agree to let an industry in, and sometimes that means sacrificing a little wilderness, or cleaning up an open-pit mine after it's played out, or whatever. But I think that concern is largely stuck in the 1960s, and fails to recognise that technology has come a long way since then, and that now a well-designed industry either cleans up after itself or doesn't make much mess in the first place.

[As to messes like the Gulf oil spill, that wouldn't have happened, or could have been contained at a much earlier stage, if they'd been allowed to drill in a safer location in the first place. But NIMBY prevailed, and look what happened!]
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:28 AM
 
Location: NW Montana
6,258 posts, read 12,886,345 times
Reputation: 3429
Yes I can agree to your observations.
I just hope the hold outs do not hold out so long that they miss their boat.
Or perhaps they want to. I just think that the heavenly father put these things into man's mind and we have the ability to use the things he has provided. We cannot control the destiny of this world, it is in his hands.
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:43 AM
 
Location: NW Montana
451 posts, read 845,757 times
Reputation: 383
What are the three biggest problems with Montana???

Answer: Nitwits, liars and politicians... but I repeat myself. (To paraphrase Mark Twain)



mg
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:24 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,452,692 times
Reputation: 15488
I was wondering myself how the oil tycoons have been kept out. Seems several years ago Haliburton found a HUGE oil field up the north fork road about mid way to Polebridge and all of a sudden (after the "north forkies" protested) POOF they were gone.
Now that there's pretty much no industry or anything more than a service industry job in the valley you'd think residents would be a bit more "open" to the idea of a couple of drilling rigs around the valley. Heck, they could put 'em up in C-falls or over on the Aluminum plant property and drill sideways like they do in Oklahoma.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,568,785 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mt-7 View Post
Yes I can agree to your observations.
I just hope the hold outs do not hold out so long that they miss their boat.
Or perhaps they want to.
They've already missed their boat. China bought up all Cuba's oil leases and will now be drilling in the Gulf (perhaps closer to U.S. shores than the deepwater rigs already there). Do you really think China will be even half as careful (let alone as skilled/experienced) as the existing big oil companies?? Take one look at Industrial China and get back to me on that. If you don't choke to death on the fumes first.

(Follow the money: who benefits from preventing Montana from exploiting its own resources?
A: Resource producers in other states or countries.)

There's another thing to be careful about -- foreign ownership of domestic resources, including mineral rights and oil leases. Methinks it would behoove Montana to consider legislation that would prohibit that, in our own best future interests. On that note...

External control of Montana Power and energy generation is one thing I'd put right up there near the top of the list of "Things wrong with Montana". (If you disagree, compare your bills from before and after, and let us know which is lower. We'll wait. ) Remember that whoever controls your energy prices ALSO controls your future industry, since damnear everything needs electricity, and most refining and manufacturing needs a LOT of it.
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:50 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,452,692 times
Reputation: 15488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
They've already missed their boat. China bought up all Cuba's oil leases and will now be drilling in the Gulf (perhaps closer to U.S. shores than the deepwater rigs already there). Do you really think China will be even half as careful (let alone as skilled/experienced) as the existing big oil companies?? Take one look at Industrial China and get back to me on that. If you don't choke to death on the fumes first.

(Follow the money: who benefits from preventing Montana from exploiting its own resources?
A: Resource producers in other states or countries.)

There's another thing to be careful about -- foreign ownership of domestic resources, including mineral rights and oil leases. Methinks it would behoove Montana to consider legislation that would prohibit that, in our own best future interests. On that note...

External control of Montana Power and energy generation is one thing I'd put right up there near the top of the list of "Things wrong with Montana". (If you disagree, compare your bills from before and after, and let us know which is lower. We'll wait. ) Remember that whoever controls your energy prices ALSO controls your future industry, since damnear everything needs electricity, and most refining and manufacturing needs a LOT of it.
Now there's a subject I hate getting started on! How in hades did the people of Montana allow the state to sell off all of it's power generation plants (IE Dams) when the people payed for and built 'em? They were wholly owned by the state and therefore produced cheap power and then were sold off and prices went UP.
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,568,785 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
Now there's a subject I hate getting started on! How in hades did the people of Montana allow the state to sell off all of it's power generation plants (IE Dams) when the people payed for and built 'em? They were wholly owned by the state and therefore produced cheap power and then were sold off and prices went UP.
To my understanding, Montana Power's owners pushed the "deregulation" thing as an exit strategy so they could strip the company of its wealth and retire. (The situation made 60 Minutes, back when.)

"Deregulation" therefore involves selling all your power generation assets, because owning such assets amounts to "unfair competition" and we can't have THAT in a "deregulated" market. Said assets are immediately snapped up by foreign or at least out-of-state interests, none of which have any motivation other than emptying your wallet. Short term gain for MT Power, long term pain for MT citizens.

Far as I can tell (having watched the same thing happen in California, and having had my power bill inflate by a factor of 10 in a decade), utility "deregulation" is invariably marketed as "increased competition so you can get the best rates", but generally amounts to a scam perpetuated on consumers.

Side Note: former Los Angeles mayor Richard Rierdon saw through the scam, and refused to allow L.A.'s power generation assets to be sold (so no "deregulation" for L.A.). L.A. continued to enjoy low electric rates, while everywhere else in CA electric rates went through the roof. I don't know what the situation is there since Rierdon retired.
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Old 11-05-2010, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,526,909 times
Reputation: 8908
Here's my three biggest.
Montana is too far away from where I live.

There is too many beautiful places I would like to stop at when I'm flying by in my truck, late for an appointment.

Too many personal junkyards littering up the state!!!
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
4,882 posts, read 5,763,319 times
Reputation: 8243
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Here's my three biggest.
Montana is too far away from where I live.

There is too many beautiful places I would like to stop at when I'm flying by in my truck, late for an appointment.

Too many personal junkyards littering up the state!!!
"Personal Junkyards"??? Those are the epitomy of recycling and the "green" lifestyle!!

Vehicles are expensive, and when you don't have much money you drive them until they completely die, then you use the parts to help keep the next $200 dollar car that is all you can afford on your service job pay running.

They might not be pretty, but when your neighbor has been out of work for the winter and can't afford a new alternator for their truck so they can go to the job call they just got, and you just happen to have one on the truck that died a couple years ago that you can give him, why that isn't junk, its a Godsend.

Use it up
Wear it out
Make it do
Or do without.

I have seen truck beds not only made into working trailers, but pig sheds, loafing sheds and chicken coops. (Windbreaks are a necessity for a lot of the state where there aren't a lot of trees, but endless wind).

I have seen windmills made to pump water constructed from car fans, drive shafts and Universal joints.

Car bodies melded with 4x4 chassis by some genius's nighmare into a luxury boonie runner that will haul you out of the mud in style!

I have seen the mad science hybridization of tractor and truck into a monster that does a great job stacking hay or feeding cows.

I have seen old motors and transmissions welded by some insane backyard engineer to sawmills, water pumps, generators, and with the transmisson, variable speed drive for fuel economy

I agree, all the old vehicles rusting away in the corner of a field do mess up the view, but for the innovation, the ability to take something and make it something else, for the ability to help your neighbor and yourself remain solvent and self sufficent, to think outside the box and make something do a job it was never designed to do, to me those private yards are the symbol of a tough, pragmatic boundlessly imaginative people who use every resource to survive in a sometimes hostile world.

Clean up the trash though, that's just over the top. How many old rusted out water heaters does one person REALLY need??
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Old 11-06-2010, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,568,785 times
Reputation: 2952
Totally agree, Silvertip. If it's still got some useful potential, it's not trash. Pretty much anything that can be welded or bolted or wired or nailed to something else can be put to SOME use, tho it may not be YOUR use, and it may not happen anytime soon. I've learned not to throw out that stuff, because when I do, on down the line I wind up buying something to replace it.

Here's a good example: I used to have this big pile of short bits of conduit, 2-3-4 feet long. I didn't bother taking 'em all last time I moved, and now I regret it. Why? Turns out they're exactly what I needed to fix the "new" fence (also salvaged). So now I find myself having to buy chunks of rebar for the same job, and it's not quite as good for the purpose (but a lot cheaper than conduit). I sure am glad I took my whole pile of used drilling rod, tho! Wish I had another pile!

Perhaps taking this to extremes ... when I'd burn used scrap wood, I'd salvage the nails out of the ash bin. You never saw anyone so cheap with a nail... hey! It can still be straightened! (And somewhere I've got a bunch of headless nails from the mid-1800s, that I dug out of the ash bin.)
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