U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Montana
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-27-2011, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,808,697 times
Reputation: 5454

Advertisements

I just happened to catch the title of this thread and I'm afraid I'd have to give it an F as a native Montanan. I would suggest that my home state's greatest problems are primarily low wages, high taxes, and the complete failure of state government to attract new businesses with high tech jobs that would attract young people to stay in Montana after they graduate from high school instead of moving to the nearest big city because there's no possibility of having a good career there. Idaho and South Dakota have done a far better job of attracting major businesses than Montana has. The nonsense about out of state liberals is ridiculous. Montana is a moderate state politically and always has been.
What we've seen happen in Montana over the last several decades is similar to what has happened in other states. Young people leave to pursue careers and are replaced by newcomers who are often retirees, looking for a second home, or are wealthy and are buying up the most desireable areas which are mainly in the western part of the state. None of those things are going to bring economic prosperity to Montana and the wages in Montana are now among the lowest in the nation. What needs to be done is to create a business friendly environment that will attract major corporations to establish factories there that will actually present young people with an opportunity to have a career that won't result in a dead end job.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:37 PM
GLS
 
1,985 posts, read 4,850,431 times
Reputation: 2408
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I just happened to catch the title of this thread and I'm afraid I'd have to give it an F as a native Montanan. I would suggest that my home state's greatest problems are primarily low wages, high taxes, and the complete failure of state government to attract new businesses with high tech jobs that would attract young people to stay in Montana after they graduate from high school instead of moving to the nearest big city because there's no possibility of having a good career there. Idaho and South Dakota have done a far better job of attracting major businesses than Montana has. The nonsense about out of state liberals is ridiculous. Montana is a moderate state politically and always has been.
What we've seen happen in Montana over the last several decades is similar to what has happened in other states. Young people leave to pursue careers and are replaced by newcomers who are often retirees, looking for a second home, or are wealthy and are buying up the most desireable areas which are mainly in the western part of the state. None of those things are going to bring economic prosperity to Montana and the wages in Montana are now among the lowest in the nation. What needs to be done is to create a business friendly environment that will attract major corporations to establish factories there that will actually present young people with an opportunity to have a career that won't result in a dead end job.
Yours' is a straightforward and logical argument. Since I am unfamiliar with the history of Montana state government, what is it that prevents the legislature from offering tax or land incentives to attract new businesses?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2011, 09:43 AM
 
213 posts, read 598,954 times
Reputation: 180
1. I completely agree with the low wages and lack of industry - beginning with the pathetic pay in state government jobs which is the reason they can't hire anyone who is competent enough to begin fixing the problem - vicious cycle!

2. Almost equally high on the list for me is the drinking and driving culture. Montana leads the nation in drunk-driving deaths and people act like it's their birthright. You can't go a week without hearing about a politician getting busted for DUI (which is why they don't pass stiffer laws) or someone getting their 8th, 9th, or more DUI that results in another slap on the wrist.

3. Isolation. I know for many people this is a good thing, and while I like the rural atmosphere, I can get frustrated because it can be so hard to get out and visit a real city. It's a long, full, day's drive at the very least to any major city - and more than that from many places. Flying out of Montana is expensive, airline options are limited and it requires a lot of connections in most cases.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2011, 09:53 AM
 
Location: C-U metro
1,366 posts, read 2,735,512 times
Reputation: 1163
Default Not so

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I just happened to catch the title of this thread and I'm afraid I'd have to give it an F as a native Montanan. I would suggest that my home state's greatest problems are primarily low wages, high taxes, and the complete failure of state government to attract new businesses with high tech jobs that would attract young people to stay in Montana after they graduate from high school instead of moving to the nearest big city because there's no possibility of having a good career there. Idaho and South Dakota have done a far better job of attracting major businesses than Montana has. The nonsense about out of state liberals is ridiculous. Montana is a moderate state politically and always has been.
What we've seen happen in Montana over the last several decades is similar to what has happened in other states. Young people leave to pursue careers and are replaced by newcomers who are often retirees, looking for a second home, or are wealthy and are buying up the most desireable areas which are mainly in the western part of the state. None of those things are going to bring economic prosperity to Montana and the wages in Montana are now among the lowest in the nation. What needs to be done is to create a business friendly environment that will attract major corporations to establish factories there that will actually present young people with an opportunity to have a career that won't result in a dead end job.
For years, Montana had a very oppressive business equipment tax that was between 8 and 10% that covered everything from copiers to farm equipment. That depressed the economy quite a bit as who wants to bring in new manufacturing jobs when they have to pay tax on all the equipment they are bringing in to the state? It was repealed under the Raciot administration after fighting the Butte wing of the Dem party.

Montana also has a high personal income tax relative to other states with the top bracket of 7% starting at an AGI of 15k (IRS.fov).

Montana does have a small minority of elderly native-Montanan's who don't want the growth. They align with the out-of-state retirees and Californians to stop resource industries like coal, oil and timber. The issue becomes then how to prevent Montana, particularly Western Montana, from turning into the park for the wealthy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2011, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,808,697 times
Reputation: 5454
GLS wrote:
Quote:
Yours' is a straightforward and logical argument. Since I am unfamiliar with the history of Montana state government, what is it that prevents the legislature from offering tax or land incentives to attract new businesses?
I just think it's a lack of political will. South Dakota went out of it's way to attract new businesses and it seems to have paid off. Unfortunately there are quite a few other states in the same shape as Montana and many politicians have expressed their concerns about the younger generation packing up and moving away after high school. Another problem is that small towns all across the nation are generally getting smaller because there are virtually no employment opportunities combined with the fact that young people are often attracted to the excitement of living in a big city. I know that's why I left Montana in 1975 to move to Seattle but I still have friends who live in Montana and many of them are either working at low paying jobs or else they're looking for a job. It's really a bad situation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2011, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Approximately 50 miles from Missoula MT/38 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
2,297 posts, read 3,346,378 times
Reputation: 4829
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo403 View Post
1. I completely agree with the low wages and lack of industry - beginning with the pathetic pay in state government jobs which is the reason they can't hire anyone who is competent enough to begin fixing the problem - vicious cycle!

2. Almost equally high on the list for me is the drinking and driving culture. Montana leads the nation in drunk-driving deaths and people act like it's their birthright. You can't go a week without hearing about a politician getting busted for DUI (which is why they don't pass stiffer laws) or someone getting their 8th, 9th, or more DUI that results in another slap on the wrist.

3. Isolation. I know for many people this is a good thing, and while I like the rural atmosphere, I can get frustrated because it can be so hard to get out and visit a real city. It's a long, full, day's drive at the very least to any major city - and more than that from many places. Flying out of Montana is expensive, airline options are limited and it requires a lot of connections in most cases.
.......OK...........I've read most of the recent posts in this thread and take issue with some of the statements and the logic behind some of these statements. I fully realize that we are all different in how we view the positives and negatives as related to a given situation within a state.......be it job opportunity; wages; ease of out-of-state-travel; big-city conveniences; recreational & cultural opportunities; etc;etc. And yes, we all are totally entitled to these opinions......be they "subjective" or "objective". I guess it boils down to everyone's personal history and the results of their choices: (where to live); (their degree of success in their chosen field); (their "interests" and how they spend their free time); (how easily they make friends); etc;etc;etc..

Bongo....if I may, I'd like to use some of the points in your para#3 to express my feelings, opinions and thoughts on this "total subject". I am not "jumping-on" you, or "flaming-you"......I just want to indicate that some of the points you bring up......are what caused me to Move to MT.

.....[Isolation & Rural enviroment]:..........................
When I bought a few acreas in the Bitterroot Valley 34 years ago, (moved here in 1980) it was exactly what I had been looking for. I had witnessed and lived with the results of what happened --from about 1962 to present--- (& still is happening) to a western state (Colorado) that enticed and promoted outside interests to bring in various types of companies (employment opportunties) in many fields (state-wide): tech and high tech; manufacturing; entertainment; recreational equipment; etc;etc;etc.

IMHO (admittedly subjective).....the results (since about 1970) changed the many, many "desireable"; "sought-after"; "affordable"; and "attractive aspects" of a "low-key"; slow-paced; desireable western state (particularly the front-range)......into....... well ....what it is today!!!! Boulder and the Boulder area is a prime example of what can happen. (unless a person knows what the Boulder area was like.......let's say in 1962......you cannot appreciate what I'm trying to convery!.) Being very close to the end of my 8th decade, and having lived these last 31 years in Montana..........I would hate to see the "progress" that occurred in Colorado, happen to (and in) Montana. (yes, I've been back there (Boulder area) in recent years..........and I would not live back there.....if I was given a home for free.....life is too short !!

I knew when I moved here (and had about 14 more years to work before retirement), that I couldn't make a decent wage in the Missoula/Bitterroot area...................so I adapted, and took a job (in my same field) with an out-of-state-based company that required about 80% "out-of-state-travel", but paid what I needed to maintain a standard of living that was comparable.

Don't forget:..............everything in life "is-a-trade-off". In most instances: the more inconvenience you can handle (in my case a lot of travel)......the more you are paid. For me is worked well.........

So lets say in summary: "What some folks don't like about Montana, are in fact, what many of "us" truly love and hold dear about this state"....................................AND yes, I do wish I could turn the clock back (in the Bitterroot) to 1976.

P.S. .......and yes, I agree 100% with your comments in para#2.

Last edited by Montana Griz; 01-28-2011 at 01:21 PM.. Reason: ...made a few spelling corrections.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2011, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,808,697 times
Reputation: 5454
Montana Griz, You made some very thoughtful and valid points and I can relate to many of them. I think it's important to find the right balance between growth, industry and jobs versus keeping things the way they were thirty or fourty years ago. When I was growing up in Butte, my home town, wages were high due to the strong influence of organized labor and unions and it was generally more prosperous than it is today. I do realize that if growth gets out of control then so does the cost of housing and the general cost of living even if there are thousands of new jobs being created. I've lived in Seattle, Denver, Phoenix and now Nashville and I've seen the pros and cons of growth in the first three of those cities. Also, Americans tend to move from state to state by the millions just as I have done but Montana's population has hardly changed at all according to the Census Bureau.
If you compare cities like Boise, Idaho to any Montana city you'll notice that Boise has become quite a large city compared to what it was 25 years ago but it's also attracted many new businesses and better paying jobs. This hasn't had a negative impact on the quality of life in the state as a whole in my opinion. There are still plenty of places for people who prefer small town life and being near the outdoors. Montana, on the other hand, has many counties that are literally at the poverty level and as I said on my earlier post if you lose the younger generation who move to where the jobs are it will lead to the deterioration of the economy as well as the quality of life.
I would like to see my home state make a comeback economically without having to lose it's identity and lifestyle and I feel certain that this could be done.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2011, 04:18 PM
 
213 posts, read 598,954 times
Reputation: 180
Montana Griz - I totally agree my #3 was subjective, which is why I started it out with the statement "for many people this is a good thing...." BTW - my statements are factual - it does take along time to drive anywhere, and it is more expensive to fly out of Montana than it is a major hub like Denver. What is subjective is whether or not that is important to an individual. I didn't mean to imply that it would be a negative for everyone.

I stand by my post for this reason: I feel that these are the things that people in these forums want to know - even if they are "opinions" -- especially people who are considering moving here. It's easy enough to run a few google searches to uncover the facts regarding wages, cost of living, etc. People inquire in the forums because they want to know what it really "feels like" to live here. A lot of folks get caught up in the idea that Montana is rural and beautiful and not overrun with people, without thinking about the tradeoffs (like the isolation), then they get here and become disppointed (and those are the folks who try to "change" us). I totally understand what you mean about the trade off, and while the isolation gets to me sometimes (especially during major league baseball season), I'm still living here because the trade off is worth it. Each individual needs to decide if the tradeoff works for them - I think it's totally fair to provide them things to think about - even if it is subjective.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2011, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Approximately 50 miles from Missoula MT/38 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
2,297 posts, read 3,346,378 times
Reputation: 4829
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo403 View Post
.................<<<<<BTW - my statements are factual - it does take along time to drive anywhere, and it is more expensive to fly out of Montana than it is a major hub like Denver.>>>>>>If you interpted any of my post to imply that your statements were "not factual".............that was not my intent. What is subjective is whether or not that is important to an individual. I didn't mean to imply that it would be a negative for everyone............Agreed,....no problem.

.................... A lot of folks get caught up in the idea that Montana is rural and beautiful and not overrun with people, without thinking about the tradeoffs (like the isolation), [[then they get here and become disppointed ]](and those are the folks who try to "change" us).
..
Regarding the last sentence above --particularly that portion I put in Brackets--, I have this to say: If anyone decides to make a major, permanent move to Montana (or any place really), without visiting at least once during each season (5 days minimum), AND really do "extensive homework" related to (ALL ASPECTS OF THE AREA) ............I have no real compassion for them, if they end up "being surprised and/or dissatisfied with the reality of their choice.... I think (MHO) this partially relates to a major problem we have today in our society: i.e.> a certain percentage of us are reluctant to admit: "hey, I made this choice, I guess I "didn't do enough homework', and I want to blame some entity other than myself........or as you have so accurately pointed out: "try and change what I don't like".

Perhaps my feelings and (opinion) on this point, are the result of my being born near the end of the 'Great Depression' and growing up in an era when the majority of people (at least those I was associated with) had to make many hard choices which resulted in various types of results, however they accepted those results as being the product of their actions (choices)......and therefore they accepted and shouldered the responsibility for those action(s). .....Ok, I'll get off my 'soap box' now, take my Geritol and "turn on Lawrence Welk"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2011, 08:37 PM
 
213 posts, read 598,954 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Griz View Post
..
.....Ok, I'll get off my 'soap box' now, take my Geritol and "turn on Lawrence Welk"
Your posts have given me quite a trip down memory lane - earlier you mentioned the Bitterroot in 1976 - I was a kid growing up in the Bitterroot of the 1970's. And I was forced to watch Lawrence Welk every Sunday night. I, too, miss the Bitterroot as it was in the '70's, but I can't say the same for Lawrence Welk!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Montana
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:14 PM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top