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Old 09-14-2010, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,545 posts, read 12,620,926 times
Reputation: 2958

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesconsinite View Post
Quiet, out by themselves, no one to bug them. But there's something about knowing that it's not really true.... that you can drive a couple hours and be somewhere. And I mean somewhere like Duluth or Minneapolis.
There's something to that... where I live now is about as middle-of-nowhere as SoCal gets, yet it's only an hour to Los Angeles -- and that changes the feel of this particular piece of nowhere, as well as the way people behave around it. I can see how some people prefer it, but I'd rather not have the big city looming over my shoulder, nor its lights always on my horizon. Other people need to have that urban civilization nearby, and a sense of belonging to its way of life, its excitement or whatever need it fulfills for them.

As to ugly, that's always in the eye of the beholder. My sister (who likes living in a city) loves the mountains and hates the desert, calls it "desolate" and can't understand why anyone would like it here. I didn't like it when I was younger, but have come to love the desert, the high plains, the rough sage country of the midwest, and now greatly prefer it to the mountains. Well, if we all liked the same thing we'd all be fighting over who gets it, eh?
I love all waste
And solitary places; where we taste
The pleasure of believing what we see
Is boundless, as we wish our souls to be
-- Byron
.
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:11 AM
 
152 posts, read 290,726 times
Reputation: 108
I was going to say Max Attack, but he lives in D.C. so he is not really a part of Montana anymore.

1. Land control freaks: This includes stealing from our children in the form of massive tax breaks and in the case of Ravalli county direct public money to pay off a farmer or rancher's kids so they can permanently keep the farm tax subsidized in perpetuity. What a scam; No wonder the price of property is so outrageous in this state. If the taxpayers are paying for land it should be for public use. This also includes Craig Barrett of Intel.

2. This desire to plan and regulate and control the actions of others and what they do or don't do on their property is quite wearing. If you really feel unable to help yourself and foist your fears and worry upon the rights of others, may I suggest California, Oregon, etc. Life should be much simpler than this. You should be left alone unless you are harming another person or their property, and I mean actual harm.

3. There needs to be a new negligence based tort: Abuse of power. Any time a judge or elected official misapplies, misuses, and makes decisions outside of written law then that judge or elected official is then personally liable and for treble damages. A preponderance of the evidence standard. Away with governmental immunity.
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,545 posts, read 12,620,926 times
Reputation: 2958
Quote:
Originally Posted by nature's cathedral View Post
2. This desire to plan and regulate and control the actions of others and what they do or don't do on their property is quite wearing. If you really feel unable to help yourself and foist your fears and worry upon the rights of others, may I suggest California, Oregon, etc. Life should be much simpler than this. You should be left alone unless you are harming another person or their property, and I mean actual harm.
Exactly!!

Tho it does require discarding the notion that what your neighbour does or doesn't do impacts your property value, where said impact is in fact only aesthetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nature's cathedral View Post
3. There needs to be a new negligence based tort: Abuse of power. Any time a judge or elected official misapplies, misuses, and makes decisions outside of written law then that judge or elected official is then personally liable and for treble damages. A preponderance of the evidence standard. Away with governmental immunity.
What an excellent notion. And let's apply it even more stringently to appointed and regulatory officials, who don't even answer to the voters. With jail time for repeat offenders. -- There'd be about six CA officials not behind bars, and probably not a durn one still running loose in Washington D.C.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,492,194 times
Reputation: 2147483647
Quote:
Originally Posted by nature's cathedral View Post
I was going to say Max Attack, but he lives in D.C. so he is not really a part of Montana anymore.

1. Land control freaks: This includes stealing from our children in the form of massive tax breaks and in the case of Ravalli county direct public money to pay off a farmer or rancher's kids so they can permanently keep the farm tax subsidized in perpetuity. What a scam; No wonder the price of property is so outrageous in this state. If the taxpayers are paying for land it should be for public use. This also includes Craig Barrett of Intel.

2. This desire to plan and regulate and control the actions of others and what they do or don't do on their property is quite wearing. If you really feel unable to help yourself and foist your fears and worry upon the rights of others, may I suggest California, Oregon, etc. Life should be much simpler than this. You should be left alone unless you are harming another person or their property, and I mean actual harm.

3. There needs to be a new negligence based tort: Abuse of power. Any time a judge or elected official misapplies, misuses, and makes decisions outside of written law then that judge or elected official is then personally liable and for treble damages. A preponderance of the evidence standard. Away with governmental immunity.
Unfortunately, those three things could be for any state. Montana doesn't have the corner on that market.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
4,928 posts, read 5,817,289 times
Reputation: 8336
Excellent post nature's cathedral

My three are:

1) Out of staters whining that things aren't exactly like what they left.

2) Out of state intrests shutting down all extractive industries in Montana so no jobs are produced, and then bellyaching when there are no jobs.

3) People not respecting private property and deciding they know what is best for everyone else. People who think Montana is a park and there should be no private property rights so they can trespass anywhere they like or demand you build a certain kind of house or you may only raise certain animals within smelling distance of their apartment or mcmansion.

If a person puts up the money, (however they got it) and buys property, it is theirs. I don't like accesses to forest service or public ground, or even roads to old mining camps shut down, and there should be access to public waters such as the Smith river or many others, but what crops you raise or don't raise, what animals you choose to have on your property and what kind of house you choose to build, those should be your decision, no-one elses. Regulating who can come on your property comes more from the sue happy loonie toons than from most ranchers wanting to just have their own private feudal estate. Mostly these days it is a CYA situation to protect yourself and your assets, not just being a jerk.

Ted Turner and company are an exception to this rule.

I would add to the excellent point about purposeful misconduct of judges legislating from the bench, I would like to see these enviro-wackos actually have to pay to sue everytime a business comes to the state or when the local/state government try to do fire mitigation by logging off dead trees instead of the taxpayers footing the bill. A looser pays option is good, but only if you have even handed judges. That dip in Missoula would never find for the just cause if the eco-terrorists had to pay for their frivilous lawsuits.

I would like to see access to forest service and public land expanded, not shut down in "roadless" areas where we can't get fire equipment in to fight these huge forest fires, and also to allow families with small kids or elderly parents who have mobility problems to access the forest and enjoy it for camping or picnicing or hiking, or fishing or hunting. It used to be that the family could throw some camping stuff in the car on Friday night after work, drive up into the hills and camp for the weekend. Now you are restricted to a few authorized campgrounds that are overcrowded because the area is shut down, so fewer families make the effort these days. It is really sad.

Closing down huge areas for the express enjoyment of an elite few is not utilizing the land to any purpose but shutting it down so the rich and shameless who want to hike in their berkinstocks with a little cheese and wine in a daypack can "get in touch with nature".

Public land should be open to the public, and utilized for the benefit of the public at large.

OK, Rant over...

for now....
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,545 posts, read 12,620,926 times
Reputation: 2958
What Silvertip said (here's some virtual rep points, since it won't let me give real ones).

And that boils down to a "what's wrong with MT and most states" too -- there's TOO MUCH "respect" for imported lifestyles (meaning all the complaints about ag industries like livestock and feedlots, and about the hard-product industries like logging/sawmills and mining/smelters), and NOT ENOUGH respect for the established MT lifestyle. As I said somewhere else, you couldn't bring goats to Beverly Hills; why do you expect to bring Beverly Hills to goat country?

Chouteau County has addressed this with some ag-land protection laws which strictly limit development-related changes. Perhaps they should be adopted by the state as a whole.

We used to go exploring up the old logging and backside-of-the-ranch roads all the time when I lived in MT ... what better way to reach the backcountry without doing any harm yourself? Are you saying those roads are now all closed off??
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:17 AM
 
Location: deer lodge montana
3 posts, read 3,919 times
Reputation: 11
1.Montana has lost too many freedoms that made this state the last best place
2.Capitalism..big business! more and more we are losing our ma and pa businesses..small businesses are being priced out
3.Government has too much control..we are too policed..i can't even keep up with all the new laws and am sure i break at least one everyday!
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
4,928 posts, read 5,817,289 times
Reputation: 8336
Thanks Reziac;

Many are, and more are closed every year.

Wilderness study areas, critical habitat, erosion mitigation, wildlife protection areas, whatever euphenism they use, it boils down to the same thing. Roads are buldozed out, locked gates and restricted access.

Large areas of the Big Belts have been locked up, many roads that have existed for over 100 years in the Elkhorns are now gone. The Gallatin Forest has lost huge amounts of forest to Study areaas and Primitive areas.

If you aren't in really good shape, have the means to be able to hike way back into the area and make a spike camp to hunt, and be in good enough shape to pack out your game on your back for miles,(and possibly loose it to spoilage or bears), or have horses, (even mountain bikes are prohibited in some areas), you are completely SOL if you want to use "Your Public Land".

Old logging roads, mining roads, fire roads, many are gone now and won't be back. It is a real tragedy for those who actually use the forest, but it sure looks good from the highway, except for all those dead trees we can't touch or use.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Seymour, Missouri
45 posts, read 68,605 times
Reputation: 62
instead of segragtion of color they have segragation of class(??) it seems I don't know that class is the right word. like one group can go to the public pool and swim and another group get's arested for walking in the gate. I don't live there but have kept up with as much as i can and (plz don't get mad at me) It seems to me Montana was thiving before some big wig thought they had something to prove and started woking more for money not for Montana. Whoever that is their seeing $$$ not the suffering of Montana natives. Nor do they care.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,545 posts, read 12,620,926 times
Reputation: 2958
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
Wilderness study areas, critical habitat, erosion mitigation, wildlife protection areas, whatever euphenism they use, it boils down to the same thing. Roads are buldozed out, locked gates and restricted access.

Large areas of the Big Belts have been locked up, many roads that have existed for over 100 years in the Elkhorns are now gone. The Gallatin Forest has lost huge amounts of forest to Study areaas and Primitive areas.

Old logging roads, mining roads, fire roads, many are gone now and won't be back. It is a real tragedy for those who actually use the forest, but it sure looks good from the highway, except for all those dead trees we can't touch or use.
Yet the forests and other wilderness areas were vastly healthier back when they were being accessed and used, grazed and logged and driven through on all manner of little back roads. Goes to show none of this is really about wilderness preservation:

I do wonder how much is being driven by money from foreign interests, such as timber producers in Southeast Asia. Turned out when you follow the money on CA's Prop 2 (which prohibits modern egg production) it leads straight back to egg exporters in the Phillipines, India, and China, even tho Prop 2's nominal backers were various "humane" interests. Point being, when some "ecological" movement puts an American industry out of business, it opens the door for what amount to foreign monopolies (since they can ALWAYS undercut the American industry and put them out of business.. and then you have NO choice about where to get your product).

Montana needs to open its eyes to what's going on behind the scenes in the envirowacko movement (which brings its backers millions of dollars every year), and take steps to see that it is not in control of public policy ... at least so far as what can be controlled locally. What the Feds do, we may not be able to stop, not so long as we're part of the Union.

Last edited by Reziac; 09-15-2010 at 11:51 AM.. Reason: poofread carefully to see if you left any letters out.
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