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Old 05-13-2009, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,570,254 times
Reputation: 2952

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AQHA View Post
True, but its the poor who put the greatest demand on our social services. Its the poor who contribute the least and take the most. I feel like a jerk saying it but it is true.
In a lot of cases that's true, and I've absolutely no sympathy for the welfare poor. But then there are a much larger number of people like myself -- I'm not eligible for nor have I ever taken a penny of welfare, and damned little in social services of any sort (used the federally-funded hospital a couple times to get a flu shot; that's it) yet I'd be squeezed to death by a regressive tax.

I suspect that's the case across most of the farming midwest -- that majority of hardworking folks who are just barely making it, who are NOT a burden on the social systems, would be hurt the most yet gain nothing for it. Conversely the city poor, who've been gaming the system for decades, would continue to live off welfare and social services while paying little or nothing in tax (since food stamps and the like aren't taxable).

So the effect would be that the working poor would get poorer, while the welfare poor would see no changes in their lives, as it would cost them nothing.

The 9% sales tax here in SoCal is already painful in today's economy. And be aware that the most conservative estimate places a national flat tax (which can only really be done as a sales tax) at 25% just to maintain the current level of federal revenue (a more realistic estimate was 34%). Flat taxes in Europe, mainly as VAT, average around 50%.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:46 AM
 
989 posts, read 3,126,848 times
Reputation: 632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
So the effect would be that the working poor would get poorer, while the welfare poor would see no changes in their lives, as it would cost them nothing.
Yea, thats true. I guess there's no easy fix, I just hate to see the "rich" having to carry so much of the load. I have no grudge for those who need welfare during a tough time, after all, thats what its for. I just hate to see people who ride the system and make those of us who pay high taxes carry them.
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,570,254 times
Reputation: 2952
From today's Downsizer Dispatch:
Quote of the Day: Do not let these 545 people (Congress, President, and Supreme Court) shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take it. . . . Those 545 people and they alone are responsible.
-- Charley Reese
Interesting articles:

It's Time to Consider the Cost of Regulation | CEI (http://cei.org/articles/it's-time-consider-cost-regulation - broken link)
Ten Thousand Commandments | CEI

Last edited by Reziac; 05-13-2009 at 11:06 AM.. Reason: get rid of some idiot's use of Word to edit web links
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,570,254 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by AQHA View Post
Yea, thats true. I guess there's no easy fix, I just hate to see the "rich" having to carry so much of the load. I have no grudge for those who need welfare during a tough time, after all, thats what its for. I just hate to see people who ride the system and make those of us who pay high taxes carry them.
The solution is simple: no welfare unless you work. Even the disabled can do some sort of work -- even if it's just Walmart greeter.

But as the system is set up now, if you work, you lose your welfare payment. In fact, even just owning a car (so you can GO to work) can get your social aid payments stopped. So it discourages people from even trying to make their own way, and enforces helplessness and dependency on the state.

The fact is the entire welfare state is designed to keep poor people in need of handouts -- because then who do they vote for? The people who give them handouts.

Last edited by Reziac; 05-13-2009 at 11:15 AM.. Reason: incomthunkedness
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:18 AM
 
Location: MT
155 posts, read 639,055 times
Reputation: 139
I am the same as AQHA. I don't feel the "rich" need to carry everyone. In my eyes I see this is how things work... you put in your time in college.... work hard.. be talented... invent something... start a good business.... oh but wait you can't be making all this money! Better give it to uncle sam, we can spend it for you.

Why could this not be handled on a straight tax on federal income. Let's say Everyone pays 20%..... I am young and single so currently I pay about 28-30% of every pay check goes to the gov't. That seems backwards, because the things I am paying into I don't even use and if I did get to keep some of this I most likely would use this extra to buy things and stimulate the economy. I am just mad cause I know I won't see a dime of this SS tax money come back to me.

I have a the same strong view on inheritance tax..... Is there anything wrong with working hard and earning money to invest in you and your family, and have something to pass on when you retire? Does the gov't really need this money too?

It is almost like the gov't doesn't want anyone to better themselves!
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,570,254 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtboy View Post
It is almost like the gov't doesn't want anyone to better themselves!
Of course not. If you can better yourself, then what do you need big government for??


Rez's quick guide to the American political parties:

Democrat: Give us all your shovels, so we can dig those po'folks ditches, whether they need 'em or not.

Republican: Here's a shovel. Go dig your own damn ditch.

Libertarian: I ain't diggin' no damn ditch!

Green: You ain't diggin' no damn ditch!

Peace and Freedom: Hey man, spade me up a new patch for my pot.

American Independent: Covet not thy neighbour's shovel, and what is this 'ditch' of which thou speaks?
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:36 AM
 
989 posts, read 3,126,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtboy View Post
... you put in your time in college.... work hard.. be talented... invent something... start a good business.... oh but wait you can't be making all this money! Better give it to uncle sam, we can spend it for you.
I grew up in a low income home, I know people can fall on hard times. I know there are a lot of hard working people who for one reason or another have not found financial success, but what you say is exactly right. There are many of us who have worked our butts off to get through college and rise to a higher income level than the average joe. Why should I be punished for my hard work? Why should money be taken away from my family to support the family of the man who did not make the sacrifices I made?
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,570,254 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtboy View Post
I am the same as AQHA. I don't feel the "rich" need to carry everyone. In my eyes I see this is how things work... you put in your time in college.... work hard.. be talented... invent something... start a good business.... oh but wait you can't be making all this money! Better give it to uncle sam, we can spend it for you.
I can't find the quote offhand, but Messiah-O actually said something like that, to the effect that anyone who was wealthy should be forced to give it up, so it can be spent on welfare instead.

Of course now if you start a good business, we'll tax and regulate it until you go out of business. Can't have anyone getting ahead, they might actually provide JOBS, and then how would we keep everyone on welfare??
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Long Beach, CA
108 posts, read 236,319 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf232 View Post
I still don't get it. We spend 800 some Billion bucks to bail out banks and industries that had bad business practices...

For 300 Million we could have given every citizen of the US a million dollars.

I understand that that would screw up inflation big time, but it seems to me like it would be a better idea to put the money in the hands of the people who are going to spend it and stimulate industry.

Say the fed sent a check to every head of household taxpayer for 100K. Loans would be paid, helping the banks... Cars would be bought, helping out the auto industry.. etc and so on..

The federal government is getting way out of line. We need fire these folks (after all they do work for the American people.) eliminate the electoral college, and give the power back to the States and Localities.
How do you give power to the states by eliminating the electoral college?? On the contrary, you're condemning some to total irrelevance.
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:38 PM
 
Location: MT
155 posts, read 639,055 times
Reputation: 139
I agree too, I am 100% for helping someone out anytime it is necessecary. I understand as well as I grew up, poor... not welfare poor but still, never had a brand name store bought piece of clothing until I was in High School. That is about the time my family started to get out of some of the debt, we had to sell some ground but sacrifices are made. We lived on hand me downs and goodwill clothes, hell some of the stuff you get there is just as good. Also, me and my bro qualified for free food at school, but my parents never stooped to that level. We could pay the 1.50/day it took to eat at school... but the other kids in my class that got who qualified for free lunch and took advantage of it guess what they had nice clothes, parents had nice vehicles, lived in nicer house etc. (those are the ones who need a beating).

And if you need welfare dollars to fill your tank so you can get to school, or work, or a career services office, I more than willing give you the money. But if you need money to fill your tank so you can get to a liquor store, your drug dealers house, or a bar to get your next fix until you get another 50. That is not what we should support, and seems like that is all this system does support.

These are just a few instances I have experienced in my short life. Don't need to mention the fella who sued a company because he could not work and injured his back, got a million cause he could not work anymore. Then about a month after his settlement he is out HAND DIGGING post holes for his new fence on his newly purchased property. Anyway kind of off subject.

In conclusion:

I AM ALL FOR HELPING THOSE THAT NEED OR COULD BENEFIT FROM MY HELP.

I AM JUST NOT FOR HELPING THOSE THAT THINK I AM ENTILTED TO HELP.
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