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Old 05-25-2009, 09:02 AM
 
Location: In The Outland
6,023 posts, read 11,869,550 times
Reputation: 3535

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky1949 View Post
The only people I hear referring to or president as an "emporer" or "Messiah" or the like are right wing loons. Why do you idolitize him so much? He is just a smart guy who so far is doing a pretty good job of cleaning up after the most corrupt, dishonest and incompetent administration in the history of this country. , or stay in New York. If your email is indicative of the type of "contribution" you will make to this state, may I second the suggestion that you consider North Dakota. It has more residents of your ilk. Montana is progressive, and we don't need more baggage.
Take your right wing loon bashing to the proper forum please.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:48 AM
 
66 posts, read 136,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seven of nine View Post
Hello Bill-
Folks do get in a twist
Looks like you are taking it in stride. Good luck and keep us up on the progress.
Hi Seven of Nine, thanks! Sky1949 made it too easy. I had fun composing that (though it's too bad about all of these points being true, and yet despite the long list, there are still some I forgot).

Thanks for your thoughts on all of this and if you have additional ideas, send them my way. I'll keep everyone up to date. I've definitely got to be here for a few more weeks but I'm hoping to have a decision by late June.
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Old 05-25-2009, 02:00 PM
 
662 posts, read 936,896 times
Reputation: 829
Bill7719: Well, I got a reply indicating that I shouldn't be bringing politics up on this thread; and I notice there is another thread that apparantly permits it. Also, I've read elsewhere on the Internet that straying off topic here is not tolerated. It'll be interesting to see if your lengthy political diatribe of right wing talking points garners the same rebuke. Therefore, I won't respond to your reply here since it might result in my getting banned. I guess we'll just stick to relocation here.
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:07 PM
 
66 posts, read 136,057 times
Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky1949 View Post
Bill7719: Well, I got a reply indicating that I shouldn't be bringing politics up on this thread; and I notice there is another thread that apparantly permits it. Also, I've read elsewhere on the Internet that straying off topic here is not tolerated. It'll be interesting to see if your lengthy political diatribe of right wing talking points garners the same rebuke. Therefore, I won't respond to your reply here since it might result in my getting banned. I guess we'll just stick to relocation here.
Sky1949, I think some of it has to do with the fact that you initiated a rude exchange by telling not only me, but someone else, that they should stay away from Montana merely because you disagree with their views. (This sounds like a lack of tolerance and diversity, to use liberal speak.) Quite frankly, you sound like people around here who have a Borg-like attitude: "Resistance is futile. All will be assimilated..." into the Obama-can-do-no-wrong-because-we-voted-for-him-and-we're-never-wrong club.

My interest in Montana is because from reading these threads, I get the sense that there are plenty of people in that state that know how to think for themselves and are not like lemmings who give a politician "rock star" status merely because the individual comes from a particular party.

My comment began with the point about the fact that others were far more welcoming and thus I feel they would be a better representation of Montana. While this is merely a message board, numbers on this board show the majority did not tell me to stay away.

As to your label that my statements are "right wing talking points" that's a typical response from someone taken in by a fabrication and expert marketing to a totally gullible public. My statements were based in facts and it appears you cannot answer them other than to dismiss them. Your statements were generalized opinions and a true example of slanted talking points. You cannot even back up your claim that Obama is "smart" because there is no paper trail to prove it. Thus it is merely your opinion or the opinion of some media personality to whom you give your attention. I have no doubt that if a goldfish was elected as a Democrat president, people would be saying it was "smart" too.

As a student of history, I can strongly say without a doubt that the 2008 election was merely an updated version of 1840. A deep study of that election will show the parallels. In it, the party holding power had an unpopular president (Martin Van Buren) without much of a personality and a bad economy. The opposite party (the Whigs at that time) was so power hungry that they would stop at nothing to gain the presidency. At that time, the military was still valued in society, so they plucked an obscure, barely known general, and created a total fabrication. Despite being a wealthy elite, he was painted as a "common man" who lived in a "simple log cabin." (I toured his very luxurious former home in Indiana plus his birth home in Virginia. Nobody could honestly say either place was a log cabin.) The gullible public bought this claim hook, line, and sinker. William Henry Harrison won the election.

While the parallels in a gullible public and a power-hungry group that created a fabrication out of a virtual unknown are strongly similar, the candidates are different. Harrison actually had regard for the military (Obama wouldn't visit the wounded troops while hobnobbing around Europe). Harrison loved the Constitution (Obama has criticized it). Harrison's intelligence could be proven (Obama's college records are not released). And finally, there was no Teleprompter of the United States at the time, but Harrison still managed to deliver the longest inauguration speech in American history!
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:32 PM
 
4,406 posts, read 5,454,535 times
Reputation: 2894
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickers View Post
Take your right wing loon bashing to the proper forum please.
I'm left or right depending on the issue and have considered Eastern Montana to be an attractive option. Unfortunately, this thread has shown me that if one is college-educated or possesses moderate political sensibilities, Eastern Montana will not be welcoming. I find this disheartening, but not surprising for it has been the popular belief that rural unpopulated areas tend to be more conservative. That doesn't bother me so much, it just appears some people who post here are actively defending that it remain that way for some reason. This distrust of intelligent people who might offer a different perspective is sad. I really had hoped that a spark of genius had occurred in Montana by the people there who see things going downhill and are open to both preserving the best of the past (within reason) and incorporating the best tomorrow has to offer. Perhaps paradise is somewhere else...

PS: The area I'm attracted to is Lewistown, smack dab in the center, with the mountains I love to the west and the plains I love to the east. Otherwise, I'll take Missoula/Bitteroot Valley where I won't be forced to feel out of place.
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:44 PM
 
66 posts, read 136,057 times
Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhouse2001 View Post
I'm left or right depending on the issue and have considered Eastern Montana to be an attractive option. Unfortunately, this thread has shown me that if one is college-educated or possesses moderate political sensibilities, Eastern Montana will not be welcoming. I find this disheartening, but not surprising for it has been the popular belief that rural unpopulated areas tend to be more conservative. That doesn't bother me so much, it just appears some people who post here are actively defending that it remain that way for some reason. This distrust of intelligent people who might offer a different perspective is sad. I really had hoped that a spark of genius had occurred in Montana by the people there who see things going downhill and are open to both preserving the best of the past (within reason) and incorporating the best tomorrow has to offer. Perhaps paradise is somewhere else...

PS: The area I'm attracted to is Lewistown, smack dab in the center, with the mountains I love to the west and the plains I love to the east. Otherwise, I'll take Missoula/Bitteroot Valley where I won't be forced to feel out of place.
mhouse2001, personally, I have a MS in Education and come from a rabidly blue state. Is that educated enough for you? But I recognize there is a difference between wisdom and common sense vs. book learning. Someone could have a dozen PhDs and cannot be declared "intelligent" without proving it. Intelligence requires the ability to make proper decisions based on the information one has and the situation in which they find themselves. Intelligence does not mean merely regurgitating whatever a professor has said or quoting politically correct idealogues; it means being able to think for oneself.

I personally do not distrust intelligent people. But I also cannot stand the idea of someone being declared "intelligent" because they went to a couple of ivy league schools and won't release their grades from said schools. Let me tell you a story of a former friend who went to an ivy league school. He was the king of procrastinators. He really didn't feel like doing any work. Somehow, he got through high school with halfway decent grades (doing papers an hour before they were due and such). But the behavior caught up to him in college. He failed classes over and over again. But the college NEVER threatened him with academic dismissal. They were happy to accept his parents' money as long as they were willing to provide it. Finally, the parents realized this was a waste and pulled him from the school. He got into a state school on probation. He made some sort of case that he could not go to class so the school actually hired graduate assistants (at taxpayer expense) to attend his classes and take notes for him. In order to at least make his parents believe he was going to school, he did at least drive to the parking lot every day.....and then snoozed in his car all day long.

If said former friend had only been allowed to go to that ivy league school until he had squeezed out enough credits to graduate, was in shape, and could read lines well, he too could be qualified to be declared "intelligent" by shallow/gullible people and run for president. He wouldn't even have to release his grades! Afterall, if the guy in there now doesn't have to release grades and gets called "intelligent" because he went to an ivy league school, why not my ex-friend?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone against truly intelligent people who are interested in learning. The problem is that people get annoyed by elitists who don't look at the big picture (for example, spending $600,000 on a photo op when our nation will be running trillion dollar deficits is an idiotic move) or consider the ramifications of their decisions.

Further up in this thread, there was a very moving description of eastern Montana by MTSilvertip. Just read and absorb what was written. Do you honestly think a person without intelligence could survive and do well in a place like that? People have to be resourceful in such a situation.

If your reference is to the conversation I had with RedRaven, the issue I have (and I would guess RedRaven has) is the point about elitism that is often associated with a college. I don't think anyone has a problem with a focus on lifelong learning and an attempt to better oneself. Having worked at a college for many years, I saw elitism first hand. There is a serious difference between "book smarts" and true wisdom. Some people possess both. But more often, a person only has one or the other. I have deep respect for those with true intelligence/wisdom. But for those with mere booksmarts who stare down their nose at people who work in the real world, sorry, they aren't going to earn my respect. If they get off their pedestal and are willing to recognize that they are not above mere mortals who don't have alphabet soup after their names, then I will be happy to re-evaluate my opinion of them.

But, I do have to ask... you wrote "forced to feel out of place." If someone is new to an area, why should the locals be expected to conform to the newcomers' views? Why shouldn't the newcomer take some time to really examine an area (if they want to live there) and figure out why things are done a particular way before just declaring that they should be changed because things are done differently wherever the newcomer is from? When in Rome... Why shouldn't the newcomer volunteer in the community, try to be a good neighbor, etc., and then, after really being immersed in the area, ONLY then suggest truly reasonable improvements? If a majority of the locals agree, they might decide to implement them.

Years ago my family and I lived in a then small sort of rural town in Upstate NY. It even had a nice neighborhood shopping mall. People "discovered" the town. Taxes went out of sight. Families that had been in said town for generations, passing their land and homes to subsequent generations, were forced to leave. The town adopted an attitude that if you owned vacant land, it would be taxed as if it could have a subdivision. People could either sell it to a developer or donate it to the town (which would then sell it to a developer and pocket the money). Congestion built up. Schools became overcrowded. Crime increased. Big box stores cropped up like mushrooms. The once nice shopping mall became a dilapidated eyesore and was replaced....by more big box stores. In the process, all the neighbors started having saturated lawns because the town did not force the developers to redevelop the place in a proper way. There was a nice historic home with 200+ year old trees on the lot. The home was built by the Stanford family (think Stanford University). Sadly, this was across the street from the former shopping mall. While the house was kept, the town decided it needed another strip plaza surrounding the stately old mansion. (Bear in mind that the big box "power center" that replaced the former mall was not even full, nor was another existing strip plaza next door to it. The metropolitan area currently has at least six or seven shopping malls, some of which have high vacancies. It has double digit strip centers, also with high vacancies.) The once beautiful yard was blacktopped, and all the ancient trees came down. (Note that I'm not a tree hugger, but I also am not fond of completely unrestrained suburban sprawl.) Taxes on an average home in this town begin at about $5,000 per year. The town decided it needed a new town hall....and built itself a virtual castle. Their appetite for new ways to waste taxpayer money is insatiable.

To be honest, your negative tone about a rural area such as eastern Montana kind of feeds into my comments about elitism. To qualify preserving the past with a statement of "within reason" really makes me think of elitism. What about diversity that is always being talked about on college campuses (places that allege to be about higher learning)? Of course, I know firsthand that college campuses push conformity of thought. I'm really not trying to criticize you personally, but as to your statements, I have to be honest with the elitism comment.

Does everything have to adopt a cosmopolitan mentality, have all the big box stores and shopping malls, all the associated crime, higher taxes, and have everyone being unable to think for themselves? What about diversity?

Last edited by Bill7719; 05-25-2009 at 08:24 PM..
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:04 PM
 
Location: NW Montana
6,258 posts, read 12,887,553 times
Reputation: 3429
Alrighty now, just everyone take a breath!
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:37 PM
 
7 posts, read 15,710 times
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hi, just a quick follow up! if you really want the cowboy feel....and judgeing from you political views ....i'd say far western montan (missoula, hamilton, polson, T. fall, bigfork, etc.....) is not the place for you! that side of the state is really quite liberal...and more on the side of Hippy-ish, granola-ish (pardon my english but it's the best discription!). anyway, i'd say a little further east is definately the place you want to be (and being from western mt, i can say all this without bias!) But...if you still want the Mountains: Dillon, Philipsburg(GREAT little, out of the way, but AWESOME character!), Lewistown(great too!), Virginia City...those are all more central MT. As for Eastern MT, Miles City is really quite cowboy (has the oh so popular "Bucking Horse Sale",etc) and has the GREAT downtown feeling that Glendive sorely lacks (i'm sure i will get a barrage of comments on that tid-bit...but as much as I hate to admit it...it's true). okay...i'm done! good luck! if you have anymore questions...feel free to ask! happy hunting!
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:21 PM
 
66 posts, read 136,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montana_mom_2 View Post
hi, just a quick follow up! if you really want the cowboy feel....and judgeing from you political views ....i'd say far western montan (missoula, hamilton, polson, T. fall, bigfork, etc.....) is not the place for you! that side of the state is really quite liberal...and more on the side of Hippy-ish, granola-ish (pardon my english but it's the best discription!). anyway, i'd say a little further east is definately the place you want to be (and being from western mt, i can say all this without bias!) But...if you still want the Mountains: Dillon, Philipsburg(GREAT little, out of the way, but AWESOME character!), Lewistown(great too!), Virginia City...those are all more central MT. As for Eastern MT, Miles City is really quite cowboy (has the oh so popular "Bucking Horse Sale",etc) and has the GREAT downtown feeling that Glendive sorely lacks (i'm sure i will get a barrage of comments on that tid-bit...but as much as I hate to admit it...it's true). okay...i'm done! good luck! if you have anymore questions...feel free to ask! happy hunting!
Hi Montana Mom, this is excellent feedback! Thanks very much! Yes, I think if I pull up stakes and move, I want to go "all the way." I'd like to be in an area with a more conservative viewpoint. From what I've seen, Western MT's mountains are gorgeous. But, here in NY we have the Adirondacks for scenery. (I would say that Western MT beats them at least a bit despite what the TV commercials from NY's Tourism Department say!) I don't want to be in an "Upstate NY lite" situation with beautiful scenery. I want the scenery (plains are also nice because it is still different from here), the cowboy feel, and the overall conservative population.

With that said, while I would like to be around a more conservative population (remember, I'm from an area of NY where diversity of political opinion is not tolerated), I don't even mind being amongst liberals who are not of the "lemming" or "zombie" variety. There are some who think deeply about their views, the ramifications, truly study the issues, etc. There are some who are of the "respectfully agree to disagree" variety and won't ostracize you for having a different point of view. I wouldn't mind having one of those types as my next door neighbor. If I did want something more central, would I find this type among the liberals in such locations? (I know that's getting really specific, but I'm just asking for an overview.)

I think I understand perfectly about the "granola-ish" term you used. Vermont is like that. It has beautiful mountains, an excellent entrepreneurial spirit, nice farms, but somehow, the people are very liberal in a lot of ways. (I still say MT has better scenery, but VT is close.) If not for the liberalism, and the lack of the western feel, I could see myself living in VT over NY.

Do you have thoughts on Terry and Roundup in light of the above plus the cowboy feel?
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:35 PM
 
66 posts, read 136,057 times
Reputation: 38
Montana Mom, one other question. I know this is the Montana board but in light of the discussion, would you or others (the ones who have been welcoming) genuinely feel I might be happier in Wyoming? I'm bouncing between the two states. I expect no matter which one I live in, I would be visiting the other.
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