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Old 03-28-2012, 12:38 AM
 
Location: MT/35 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
1,300 posts, read 1,333,961 times
Reputation: 1617
Quote:
Originally Posted by gfunkerror View Post
I think this video sums up this subject in Montana? What do you think? Was the report accurate?

montana wolf problem - YouTube

Or are there other points missed? I am still trying to get a full grasp of the issue.
.....Hey gfunkerror.......................

I live about 13 miles from the rancher in the video and IMHO he was very factual in stating what he is faced with regarding what the wolves have done to his livelyhood.

Let me also make a few comments about "Understanding the situation in general".... Now I don't want you to feel that "I'm slaming you" or don't understand your interest in this very complicated "wolf situation" here in western Montana.....I commend you for wanting to acquire a (to use your words) "full grasp" of the issue...............HOWEVER......it is MY HUMBLE OPINION that it is virtually impossible to REALLY understand what has happened to our deer and elk herds (particularly here in Ravalli County....the Bitterroot Valley and surrounding mountains specifically), until a person has lived here for several years and personally observed reductions in deer and elk populations of up to 75% over the last ten to 15 years.
It doesn't matter how many articles, YouTubes, videos etc etc that a person can read and watch.........You've got to live here (in my case ...33 years) to realize "first hand" what damage (of all kinds) the introduction of wolves (not ever native to Montana) has caused.

Here's a fact that should astond you:

Elk Management Specialists on staff at Montana State University (they have no axe to grind) have accurately determined through extensive field studies that AT A MINIMUM a pack of (5) wolves will kill (on average) 5 deer and/or elk every 14 days....................
That's approx 17,300 animals ever year...........if you believe there are only approx 660 wolves in Montana!!!!!!!

so lets now use a different set of numbers:

1000 wolves (which many people is a more accurate figure) and factor in that the 5 kills occur every 10 days..........................thats 36,500 game animals every year!!!

One last "joyous little tidbit of information" from The Montana F&G Dept:....the resilts of their latest Aerial Surveys:....................................

There are 52 wolves for every 1000 elk in Hunting District 250 in the Bitterroot Valley.......................................Is it any wonder that the "Hunter Harvest figures" are down as much as 70% these last few years.

The introduction of these wolves (from Canada...a type (specie) that was NEVER in Montana... has resulted in the greatest Wildlife Management mistake in the history of the State of Montana.
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:04 AM
 
Location: Philly...but not for long...
175 posts, read 152,917 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Griz View Post
.....Hey gfunkerror.......................

I live about 13 miles from the rancher in the video and IMHO he was very factual in stating what he is faced with regarding what the wolves have done to his livelyhood.

Let me also make a few comments about "Understanding the situation in general".... Now I don't want you to feel that "I'm slaming you" or don't understand your interest in this very complicated "wolf situation" here in western Montana.....I commend you for wanting to acquire a (to use your words) "full grasp" of the issue...............HOWEVER......it is MY HUMBLE OPINION that it is virtually impossible to REALLY understand what has happened to our deer and elk herds (particularly here in Ravalli County....the Bitterroot Valley and surrounding mountains specifically), until a person has lived here for several years and personally observed reductions in deer and elk populations of up to 75% over the last ten to 15 years.
It doesn't matter how many articles, YouTubes, videos etc etc that a person can read and watch.........You've got to live here (in my case ...33 years) to realize "first hand" what damage (of all kinds) the introduction of wolves (not ever native to Montana) has caused.

Here's a fact that should astond you:

Elk Management Specialists on staff at Montana State University (they have no axe to grind) have accurately determined through extensive field studies that AT A MINIMUM a pack of (5) wolves will kill (on average) 5 deer and/or elk every 14 days....................
That's approx 17,300 animals ever year...........if you believe there are only approx 660 wolves in Montana!!!!!!!

so lets now use a different set of numbers:

1000 wolves (which many people is a more accurate figure) and factor in that the 5 kills occur every 10 days..........................thats 36,500 game animals every year!!!

One last "joyous little tidbit of information" from The Montana F&G Dept:....the resilts of their latest Aerial Surveys:....................................

There are 52 wolves for every 1000 elk in Hunting District 250 in the Bitterroot Valley.......................................Is it any wonder that the "Hunter Harvest figures" are down as much as 70% these last few years.

The introduction of these wolves (from Canada...a type (specie) that was NEVER in Montana... has resulted in the greatest Wildlife Management mistake in the history of the State of Montana.
Thanks for the reply! No offense was taken. Not being there to fully understand what it is like from your perspective is why I ask these questions. Your answers help. Whether they are opinion or not. Facts are important yes. But There are always other points of view on a subject to be understood. Bottom line, I hear what you are saying and I am glad you are sharing.

Earlier I read this article, which prompted me to search out more info.

Thought you would take a look at it. There is a comment on wolves in the article, that disagrees with you. I am not with you, or against you for the record. But take a look, it does support your account of the rapid population decline.

Yellowstone National Park elk herd continues steep decline

Elk, is something in Pennsylvania we enjoy as well. There is a strong Hunter and Conservation Effort here. Its something else to look at your average Deer most of your life, and then cross paths with Elk. They are making a come back...well sort of imported come back. We are glad to see them regardless.

Pa Elk Herd Information, Locations, News & Photos - Elk Guide

But to reassure you. I am not challenging you on the subject. You are correct, to know an environment, you must be in the environment.

Last edited by gfunkerror; 03-28-2012 at 01:07 AM.. Reason: its late...ok...lol
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Somewhere.
1,362 posts, read 1,470,871 times
Reputation: 1172
I'm a biologist, I totally understand the need for hunting to keep populations in check. I defend hunters with a passion. In regards to the wolves, its clear they aren't in check and need some human help. It needs to be a responsible small lottery for permits help though.

On the other side of the spectrum: its images and stories like this: (graphic for those sensitive to animal suffering) Trapped, Tortured Wolf Did Not Die In Vain…. « Howling For Justice that make so many of us animal lovers angry. I hate that this kind of "hunting" is allowed and happens. Lets face it, there is no skill involved in doing this, according to the story the "hunters" where just taking random shots at this wolf for fun. It only makes those who don't understand the need to keep populations in check more angry and trying to fight hunting laws more.

In an idealistic world, everyone would respect wildlife and understand that taking a life should be done responsibility and with dignity( not for sh*ts and giggles). I think if all hunters exhibited this kind of attitude there wouldn't been much resistance to it.
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Old 03-30-2012, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
2,592 posts, read 1,863,149 times
Reputation: 3213
Quote:
Originally Posted by saucystargazer View Post
I'm a biologist, I totally understand the need for hunting to keep populations in check. I defend hunters with a passion. In regards to the wolves, its clear they aren't in check and need some human help. It needs to be a responsible small lottery for permits help though.

On the other side of the spectrum: its images and stories like this: (graphic for those sensitive to animal suffering) Trapped, Tortured Wolf Did Not Die In Vain…. « Howling For Justice that make so many of us animal lovers angry. I hate that this kind of "hunting" is allowed and happens. Lets face it, there is no skill involved in doing this, according to the story the "hunters" where just taking random shots at this wolf for fun. It only makes those who don't understand the need to keep populations in check more angry and trying to fight hunting laws more.

In an idealistic world, everyone would respect wildlife and understand that taking a life should be done responsibility and with dignity( not for sh*ts and giggles). I think if all hunters exhibited this kind of attitude there wouldn't been much resistance to it.
I don't know about Idaho where this happened, but in Montana those "hunters" (they were not hunters by my definition) could have been prosecuted because it wasn't their trap the wolf was caught in. From the story I read, a legal trapper had put out his set, been successful, and the wolf was seen by other people who started randomly throwing shots at it.

If those guys weren't carrying valid licenses, it is poaching. If they disturb a legal trap set in Montana it would also be a violation, either of which would bring fines and suspension of hunting and fishing privileges in Montana for a number of years.
Also, through cooperative agreements with other states, if you loose your privilege in one state, you loose it in other states that the agreement is with.
You can also loose your weapon, and if convicted of a felony, all your weapons and the right to keep or buy more.

To loosely use the term "Hunter" in connection with someone who would randomly throw shots at someone elses animal is an affront to Real Hunters and Sportsmen.

Hunters know the animals, they study them, they invest a lot of time and money in pursuit of the animals. They prize their kills and use the meat or donate it to food banks or projects such as Hunters against Hunger.
They donate time to teach new hunters, they vote for legislators who understand and honor the traditions and animals and the people of this state.
They work with the Fish and Game Dept and the government for habitat, for laws to promote healthy game herds. They know the animals and the outdoors far better than most people will ever dream of, and they pass the traditions, passion and love for the sport and the animals on to the next generation. The fees they pay for licenses and the taxes paid when they buy equipment buy land for habitat and pay for enforcement.

Thugs with guns are thugs with guns. Don't insult real Hunters by comparing them in any way with a real Hunter.

That trapper was following the law. Those thugs tried to take his game and demeaned what he was doing.

Hunters and Trappers do a lot for the animals. Thugs can destroy years of work in a minute because someone calls them hunters instead of what they really are.

Those thugs and the wolf had a lot in common, but the wolf still deserves better than being tortured.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:39 PM
 
Location: MT/35 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
1,300 posts, read 1,333,961 times
Reputation: 1617
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
I don't know about Idaho where this happened, but in Montana those "hunters" (they were not hunters by my definition) could have been prosecuted because it wasn't their trap the wolf was caught in. From the story I read, a legal trapper had put out his set, been successful, and the wolf was seen by other people who started randomly throwing shots at it.

If those guys weren't carrying valid licenses, it is poaching. If they disturb a legal trap set in Montana it would also be a violation, either of which would bring fines and suspension of hunting and fishing privileges in Montana for a number of years.
Also, through cooperative agreements with other states, if you loose your privilege in one state, you loose it in other states that the agreement is with.
You can also loose your weapon, and if convicted of a felony, all your weapons and the right to keep or buy more.

To loosely use the term "Hunter" in connection with someone who would randomly throw shots at someone elses animal is an affront to Real Hunters and Sportsmen.

Hunters know the animals, they study them, they invest a lot of time and money in pursuit of the animals. They prize their kills and use the meat or donate it to food banks or projects such as Hunters against Hunger.
They donate time to teach new hunters, they vote for legislators who understand and honor the traditions and animals and the people of this state.
They work with the Fish and Game Dept and the government for habitat, for laws to promote healthy game herds. They know the animals and the outdoors far better than most people will ever dream of, and they pass the traditions, passion and love for the sport and the animals on to the next generation. The fees they pay for licenses and the taxes paid when they buy equipment buy land for habitat and pay for enforcement.

Thugs with guns are thugs with guns. Don't insult real Hunters by comparing them in any way with a real Hunter.

That trapper was following the law. Those thugs tried to take his game and demeaned what he was doing.

Hunters and Trappers do a lot for the animals. Thugs can destroy years of work in a minute because someone calls them hunters instead of what they really are.

Those thugs and the wolf had a lot in common, but the wolf still deserves better than being tortured.
............Very well stated................Great post!
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:21 AM
 
Location: NW Montana
6,259 posts, read 8,044,879 times
Reputation: 3319
Here is a short video made by a couple of UM students who won an award from a national news and possible internship. It gives a good overview of the wolf reintroduction.
Searching for middle ground: Montana's wolf controversy on Vimeo

Information on the makers.
http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articl...segment/27707/
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:14 AM
 
1,065 posts, read 1,271,441 times
Reputation: 914
Just two weeks ago in Lincoln, a quite famous wonderful Border Collie was killed by wolves. It was verified by the size of the bite, the ranch owner had spotted the wolves less than 100 yds from his front door. With the help from the federal trapper assigned by MTfw&p, the male wolf was killed and female collared in order to aide the trapper in finding the den if anything else is killed. They had a few calves killed by wolves too. In Lincoln alone, we have seven packs. We had eight but the hunting season culled one out. What is ironic is that just a few months ago, the Helena Independent Record ran an article on this same rancher and his concerns over the predator population in the Blackfoot Valley and Lincoln. He was blasted by some for being a bloodthirsty wolf killer. Wonder what those wolf lovers would do if it was their dog? I live less than a mile from that ranch so my concerns are heightened.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Hawaii
24 posts, read 32,808 times
Reputation: 37
Just out of curiosity, I am wondering why the opinion of the Native Americans are not taken with more weight and consideration related to these issues. Especially concerning the reintroduction of the bison, which so many tribes claim to have such a close affinity and relationship to, it seems like an injustice to not have their voice in the middle of these debates.

Many people claim the land and the wildlife to be theirs, but let us not forget that it was the conversion of this land and wildlife habitat that eventuated the decimation of native existence. If Native Americans feel that bringing back some type of semblance of wildlife biodiversity to their historical areas will help their people, it seems they should have a voice on this topic. It seems logical to me that they should be able to run conservancies like some African tribal models if they wanted.

Are there any Native American perspectives to be shared?
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:29 PM
 
286 posts, read 315,789 times
Reputation: 176
Wink Howlin for Justice

Quote:
Originally Posted by saucystargazer View Post
I'm a biologist, I totally understand the need for hunting to keep populations in check. I defend hunters with a passion. In regards to the wolves, its clear they aren't in check and need some human help. It needs to be a responsible small lottery for permits help though.

On the other side of the spectrum: its images and stories like this: (graphic for those sensitive to animal suffering) Trapped, Tortured Wolf Did Not Die In Vain…. « Howling For Justice that make so many of us animal lovers angry. I hate that this kind of "hunting" is allowed and happens. Lets face it, there is no skill involved in doing this, according to the story the "hunters" where just taking random shots at this wolf for fun. It only makes those who don't understand the need to keep populations in check more angry and trying to fight hunting laws more.

In an idealistic world, everyone would respect wildlife and understand that taking a life should be done responsibility and with dignity( not for sh*ts and giggles). I think if all hunters exhibited this kind of attitude there wouldn't been much resistance to it.
Two years later..i am buyin a cabin there with six German Shepherds I did not listen to your tape but I wonder why you/he put that in there
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:11 PM
 
1 posts, read 176 times
Reputation: 10
Default reasonable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mt-7 View Post
And here the three s's work!

I enjoy a little bit of reason on this subject. No farmer is just going to sit and happily watch a wolf attack their critters. But I'd like to say that it sickens me that many hunters are shooting wolves for pure entertainment; and then they, more or less, throw the carcass onto a heap. Or they pose with it for the camera and tell their little girl to hold the gun and smile big for the picture. Those guys don't like me and I don't like them.
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