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Old 03-08-2012, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Wyoming
3,555 posts, read 3,210,644 times
Reputation: 3195

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabinerose View Post
Throwing in my 2 cents...

There is a valid point when talking about the difference between the different types of wolves. The natural food source for the smaller native wolves that used to inhabit parts of Montana was smaller mammals (rabbits, field mice, etc...). The larger wolves that were transplanted to parts of Montana prey on the larger herd mammals (which can include livestock).

Might just be me, but I see a very valid difference there...
So you're telling me that wolves in Montana before the reintroduction only ate rabbits and field mice? Somehow I doubt that. Also, where are all these wolves coming from that tip the scales at over 150 pounds?
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Back at home in western Washington!
1,319 posts, read 1,508,416 times
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My appologies for not listing the entire food chain consumed by the smaller breed of wolves that used to inhabit our area (that would have been the etc...).

The larger wolves that are tipping the scales are coming from tranplanted wolves that are being overly well fed on herds of elk, deer, sheep, calves, and the occasional family dog thrown in.

I do wonder how drastically the tables will tip when the prey animals are decimated and there is no more easy buffet for the predators...
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Wyoming
3,555 posts, read 3,210,644 times
Reputation: 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabinerose View Post
My appologies for not listing the entire food chain consumed by the smaller breed of wolves that used to inhabit our area (that would have been the etc...).

The larger wolves that are tipping the scales are coming from tranplanted wolves that are being overly well fed on herds of elk, deer, sheep, calves, and the occasional family dog thrown in.

I do wonder how drastically the tables will tip when the prey animals are decimated and there is no more easy buffet for the predators...
I don't think wolves would have become the second most widely distributed animal in the world after humans if they had "decimated" their prey base. While the domestic animals do make an easy "buffet" for the wolves, deer, elk, and moose are hardly an easy target. They fight back. As far as the livestock, let's research methods to reduce conflict. And to reiterate, I am not against a responsible hunting season nor am I against shooting wolves which are killing livestock. As I said before, it's all about compromise.
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:46 PM
 
Location: The Woods
14,399 posts, read 13,588,656 times
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Wolves can overpopulate. When they do, they starve if they don't move on fast enough. Natives in Alaska used to practice "denning," where they killed pups in the dens to cut down on their population when they threatened the prey population, for example. Wolves weren't "managed" in the past in the U.S., they were systematically exterminated. There's a difference between that and the present idea of managing them. Managing them today to keep them in balance and less of a nuissance is a good compromise to have wolves present but not too many either.
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Wyoming
3,555 posts, read 3,210,644 times
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Managing them today to keep them in balance and less of a nuissance is a good compromise to have wolves present but not too many either.

Can you come down to Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming and run for office? You see things like this so rarely.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:55 AM
 
177 posts, read 175,276 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabinerose View Post
Throwing in my 2 cents...

There is a valid point when talking about the difference between the different types of wolves. The natural food source for the smaller native wolves that used to inhabit parts of Montana was smaller mammals (rabbits, field mice, etc...). The larger wolves that were transplanted to parts of Montana prey on the larger herd mammals (which can include livestock).

Might just be me, but I see a very valid difference there...
Very good point...
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
17,952 posts, read 22,758,496 times
Reputation: 10989
I should step in and remind people what prompted the great wolf debate.

When the wolves were introduced, the Government did so with gaurentees in place that numbers would be kept at a particular level. The wolves would be managed at those levels as well as tracked and taken care of should they wander away from designated areas.

When the numbers got to the point where management would start cutting the numbers, a "Federal Judge" said no, and froze the program. The wolves, of course, didn't freeze their breeding program and the numbers kept growing. Eventually, they put the wolves on the endangered species list so they didn't have to worry about the program. Recently, they have been delisted.

That is where we stand at this point.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
2,791 posts, read 2,261,455 times
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I find this subject difficult to remain civil about, but to underline the feelings and emotion over this subject, there is a good article today in the Great Falls Tribune.
Some say efforts to reduce wolf population not enough | Great Falls Tribune | greatfallstribune.com

I spend a lot of time in the wilderness, always have. I can easily see where most of the cogs fit together in a system, but there are a few animals I have trouble finding a purpose for, Mosquitos, ticks, mites, Kudzu, Snakehead fish, Asian carp and wolves mainly.

I saw the Northern Elk Herd in Yellowstone Park drop from around 38,000 in the late 1980s to the present where there are less than 6,000. I have seen the destruction of the Moose herds to virtually nothing left. I see the loss of deer herds in the infected areas. It could almost be described as a genocidal war.

I know the Grizzly and Mountain Lion populations are also growing, but Griz and Cougars don't have litters of up to 14 cubs at a time.

A few years ago, I saw a wolf near our horses. I had it in the crosshairs and if it would have made any movement toward the horses I would have killed it. This was during the time period when we had just gotten permission from maloy the fed judge to protect our livestock instead of just letting them be killed, so I could have taken the shot.

The wolf was just passing through, didn't make a move toward our horses, so I let it go.

I will never make that mistake again.

This is a very highly charged and emotional subject in Montana, probably similar to illegal immigration in the southern border states. Many of us here also feel deserted by the government in controlling the situation and there has been a lot of damage done with nothing positive coming from the situation.

For those coming into Montana, just remember that the way the wolf introduction was sold to other parts of the country has no bearing whatsoever on how the wolves are actually being managed or accepted here.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:33 PM
 
1,075 posts, read 1,387,421 times
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Problem #1-The majority of the activist groups are based OUTSIDE of Montana and most of the members have never even been to Montana, Idaho or Wyoming. They've never seen the devastation wolves have caused for ranchers.

Problem #2-Judge Molloy, even though retired, still has precedence over federal court hearings concerning wolves in Montana.

Problem #3-MTFWP halted the 2012 wolf hunt even though the quota was at 75%. The remaining 25% was to take into consideration wolves killed by predation, vehicles, natural causes ect...To me this is like the MTFWP taking 25% away from Montanans.

Problem #4-Too many "outsiders" or Non-Montanans are trying to get involved simply because they think wolves are gorgeous, beautiful animals that wouldn't hurt a fly. These people need to get a life.

Problem #5-Montana predators in general need to be managed a whole lot more than MTFWP is doing. Here in Lincoln, our Whitetail population is down to dire numbers. This is part wolves and part mountain lions. Our female mountain lion population is exploding because some nitwit thought that we needed more and was able to put a cap on female harvesting. Good job nitwit. Our neighbors colt was killed right in front of our house by a lion two years ago and not even a month ago, the same guy killed a mother lion, wounded one the babies she was trying to teach how to hunt. The third kit got away. This was the same mountain lion that killed his colt and it was right back in the horse pasture going at it again. Something has to be done.

Problem #6-Not one agency nor professional biologist can confirm that there were zero wolves in Montana before introduction. For all we know, the introduction was actually an addition.

Problem #7-there are a hundred seperate problems concerning wolves (too many to list) but these are the biggest that I personally see in my neck of the woods.

To the person who said we should try to get the wolves to travel to another area....Are you insane? Wolves, along with all the other wildlife do not know bounderies. Canadian wolves don't "check in" at customs on the Canadian border, same as our wolves here in Montana. Sounds like you need to put some big girl panties on and face the cold hard facts.
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:41 PM
 
Location: MT/35 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
1,419 posts, read 1,524,407 times
Reputation: 1752
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
I find this subject difficult to remain civil about, but to underline the feelings and emotion over this subject, there is a good article today in the Great Falls Tribune.
Some say efforts to reduce wolf population not enough | Great Falls Tribune | greatfallstribune.com

I spend a lot of time in the wilderness, always have. I can easily see where most of the cogs fit together in a system, but there are a few animals I have trouble finding a purpose for, Mosquitos, ticks, mites, Kudzu, Snakehead fish, Asian carp and wolves mainly.

I saw the Northern Elk Herd in Yellowstone Park drop from around 38,000 in the late 1980s to the present where there are less than 6,000. I have seen the destruction of the Moose herds to virtually nothing left. I see the loss of deer herds in the infected areas. It could almost be described as a genocidal war.

I know the Grizzly and Mountain Lion populations are also growing, but Griz and Cougars don't have litters of up to 14 cubs at a time.

A few years ago, I saw a wolf near our horses. I had it in the crosshairs and if it would have made any movement toward the horses I would have killed it. This was during the time period when we had just gotten permission from maloy the fed judge to protect our livestock instead of just letting them be killed, so I could have taken the shot.

The wolf was just passing through, didn't make a move toward our horses, so I let it go.

I will never make that mistake again.

This is a very highly charged and emotional subject in Montana, probably similar to illegal immigration in the southern border states. Many of us here also feel deserted by the government in controlling the situation and there has been a lot of damage done with nothing positive coming from the situation.

For those coming into Montana, just remember that the way the wolf introduction was sold to other parts of the country has no bearing whatsoever on how the wolves are actually being managed or accepted here.
.............Hey 'ole MTSilvertip............................

Great post..............I tried to "rep" you, but this "system" said I have to "spread it around" more...........so here's my "rep":......."Damn Good Post"

I particularly like the anology referencing the illegal immigration situation in the boarder states.......................... Hey maybe we could get the US Fish & Wildlife Dept to trap 90% of the wolves we have in Montana, take them down to the problem boarder areas and release 'em all along the boarder.........and then let nature "take it's course".
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