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Old 05-11-2008, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Oregon woods
16 posts, read 95,001 times
Reputation: 42

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I'm in oregon so I have felt your demize about the changes taking place. For us it is already too late.... the yuppie momentum has taken root so well. Often I'm looked at for driving an old truck, that I love so, so much. To me, it has real class.

Anyway, something I wanted to say was that it all boils down to the simple fact that there are just too many people in the world. And to think something can be done to control global warming let alone other problems with an overcrowded planet. I say listen to how the Bible predicted all these, what we call 'environmental problems', centuries before. Even as early as when all of the American continent was like 'Montana'.

Anyhow hats off to the peace loving caring folks that posted on here that truely have a caring heart for one another. Your'e the salt of the earth.

Now if you want to do something about wally mart, why not start you're own made in america store? Start just like they did, eventually you could build or expand a mall for only the local ma and pa stores. Also there are a lot of local people in America who made incredible things that do not have the marketing skills to take it forward. You could help them as well as improving the local economies that way.
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Old 05-11-2008, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Laguna Woods, CA
198 posts, read 267,682 times
Reputation: 88
It's interesting there seems to be so much resentment toward California people moving to Montana. Those people selling those Californians houses, land, and renting apartments to them are Montanans. Is there a reason why much of the resentment isn't aimed toward your own residents who, for whatever reason, are selling out to those people you apparently don't like? Kind of interesting, isn't it?
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Old 05-12-2008, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,815,162 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-88 View Post
It's interesting there seems to be so much resentment toward California people moving to Montana. Those people selling those Californians houses, land, and renting apartments to them are Montanans. Is there a reason why much of the resentment isn't aimed toward your own residents who, for whatever reason, are selling out to those people you apparently don't like? Kind of interesting, isn't it?
It always seems to be a Californian who asks this question.

Most of the land developers are from out of state. The people that sell are sometimes from Montana looking for a payday, and sometimes they are "flippers" from out of state looking to buy and sell for a profit. I'd go as far as to say that most of the realtors, mortgage people, brokers and their lawyers (at least in the Bozeman Area) moved here from mostly California and a couple other places to exploit the land sales business for a profit as well.

It's not that we don't like new people. I (I can only speak for myself) just hate seeing condos and strip malls go up faster than the spring calves can grow up.
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:40 PM
 
13 posts, read 24,918 times
Reputation: 14
Bigger stores, development, higher prices, and more jobs are all signs of economic growth and efficiencies... a good thing. Those who own land and homes will see values rise, those who rent will have a tougher time affording life if they aren't participating (competing) with the growth. If you dont like this, you can take a simple step to lower your cost of living, see fewer stores and development, etc.... move to an area that is experiencing an economic depression. There are plenty of areas like this.

The comments about people from *any* state being more or less welcome than others is un-American. No person born in a particular state - Montana, California, Mississippi, or otherwise - has any more "rights" in that state than a person not born in it. We are all Americans and we sre free to move around, work hard, and contribute to growth.

Lastly, the comments about the "good ol' days" where stores were small and everything was made in the USA is a sign of a lack of education with respect to economic progress. We live in a world economy - a good thing. If China can make steel more cheaply and America can develop advanced medical techniques more cheaply, then each should specialize and trade. That too is a good thing. When a big store can sell goods more cheaply than small stores - that is a good thing.
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Old 05-14-2008, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,815,162 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeburt View Post
Bigger stores, development, higher prices, and more jobs are all signs of economic growth and efficiencies... a good thing. Those who own land and homes will see values rise, those who rent will have a tougher time affording life if they aren't participating (competing) with the growth. If you dont like this, you can take a simple step to lower your cost of living, see fewer stores and development, etc.... move to an area that is experiencing an economic depression. There are plenty of areas like this.

The comments about people from *any* state being more or less welcome than others is un-American. No person born in a particular state - Montana, California, Mississippi, or otherwise - has any more "rights" in that state than a person not born in it. We are all Americans and we sre free to move around, work hard, and contribute to growth.

Lastly, the comments about the "good ol' days" where stores were small and everything was made in the USA is a sign of a lack of education with respect to economic progress. We live in a world economy - a good thing. If China can make steel more cheaply and America can develop advanced medical techniques more cheaply, then each should specialize and trade. That too is a good thing. When a big store can sell goods more cheaply than small stores - that is a good thing.
Why are big box stores and development a good thing? Why is it good to pay someone in Juarez 5 bucks a day to assemble televisions and cars so that they can live in houses made of pallets? Because some fat can can get rich off of slave labor? I don't see the good in that.

What's wrong with the good ol' days where stores were small and products were made by American workers? Why is it good that a big chain store that provides a bunch of low paying jobs can offer product cheaper than a small town or locally owned store? Might be good for someone who lives off of the back of someone else's sweat, but I don't see how it benefits the people who perform the actual work.

It's not about people being more or less welcome in Montana based on where they are from, it's about people being more or less welcomed because of their values.

What you might see as "progress" a lot of us see as "regress". Not because of "a lack of education" either. It's because we don't believe that money is the most important thing in life. So while you are working your 70 hour weeks trying to double your net worth, I'll be working my 45 hour weeks and spending as much time with my family as possible doing the things we love to do together. Whether I'm a millionaire in a big house when my day is done, or if I live in a small cabin without many material things I'll die knowing I did the best I could and spent as much time as I could loving my family and friends. Either way you'll recognize me at my funeral because I'll be the guy in the box with a smile on my face.
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Old 05-14-2008, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,543 posts, read 12,602,054 times
Reputation: 2954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf232 View Post
It's not about people being more or less welcome in Montana based on where they are from, it's about people being more or less welcomed because of their values.

What you might see as "progress" a lot of us see as "regress". Not because of "a lack of education" either.
Hear hear... and as to education, a few facts and figures from right here on City-Data.com (these stats are some I'd saved from about a year ago; this info is apparently no longer available here, or at least doesn't show up in Mozilla):

For population 25 years and over in Lancaster, California:
* High school or higher: 78.3%
* Bachelor's degree or higher: 15.8%
* Graduate or professional degree: 5.6%
* Unemployed: 11.2%
* Mean travel time to work: 31.6 minutes
crime index (6 year average, 2001 thru 2006) 382, stable

For population 25 years and over in Bozeman, Montana
* High school or higher: 94.3%
* Bachelor's degree or higher: 49.5%
* Graduate or professional degree: 15.6%
* Unemployed: 9.5%
* Mean travel time to work: 13.9 minutes
crime index (6 year average, 2001 thru 2006) 322, dropping

Now, what was this about Montanans being uneducated?

.

Last edited by Reziac; 05-14-2008 at 07:48 PM..
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:28 PM
 
13 posts, read 24,918 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf232 View Post
Why are big box stores and development a good thing? Why is it good to pay someone in Juarez 5 bucks a day to assemble televisions and cars so that they can live in houses made of pallets? Because some fat can can get rich off of slave labor? I don't see the good in that.

What's wrong with the good ol' days where stores were small and products were made by American workers? Why is it good that a big chain store that provides a bunch of low paying jobs can offer product cheaper than a small town or locally owned store? Might be good for someone who lives off of the back of someone else's sweat, but I don't see how it benefits the people who perform the actual work.

It's not about people being more or less welcome in Montana based on where they are from, it's about people being more or less welcomed because of their values.

What you might see as "progress" a lot of us see as "regress". Not because of "a lack of education" either. It's because we don't believe that money is the most important thing in life. So while you are working your 70 hour weeks trying to double your net worth, I'll be working my 45 hour weeks and spending as much time with my family as possible doing the things we love to do together. Whether I'm a millionaire in a big house when my day is done, or if I live in a small cabin without many material things I'll die knowing I did the best I could and spent as much time as I could loving my family and friends. Either way you'll recognize me at my funeral because I'll be the guy in the box with a smile on my face.
I am curious if you believe if I am entitled to earn more money than you, given that I work 70 hour weeks and employ people along the way. (By the way, I am doing this with the hope that I can retire young and spend almost all day with my kids in their formative years.)

As for "big box" stores... They aren't necessarily better - they are just better to have as an option. Bigger stores enjoy economies of scale and sell goods for a much lower price than small (typically locally-based) stores can. A good example would be the Co-Op grocery store in Bozeman. It is filled with local/organic products that are extremely deisrable but also extremely expensive. Because of my work ethic and resulting income, I can afford to shop there often. Not everyone (including me, several years ago, when I was starting out) can afford this. Grocery store chains, which typically imports it products that are much more cheaply produced from far away, are a godsend for people who are on a budget. If we were limited to soley the Co-op, people would have twice or three times the grocery bill, along with many fewer options. Ask anyone who works in one of the big grocery chains (my brother in law does) if they would like to see their "slave labor" ended and have a couple more local/expensive stores replace their current employer. They will probably tell you that if they knew they could get a job at one of the new places and it would pay as well or better, they absolutely would. The problem is that the same economies of scale that make the prices low and the store big also mean that the chain store employs far more people. Get rid of it and there will be far fewer jobs, and our worker might get lucky but is more likely going to be out of work.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,815,162 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeburt View Post
I am curious if you believe if I am entitled to earn more money than you, given that I work 70 hour weeks and employ people along the way. (By the way, I am doing this with the hope that I can retire young and spend almost all day with my kids in their formative years.)
This is America, and it doesn't matter if anyone thinks you are "entitled" to make more money than them. (And the answer is that I don't care either way.) I earn my own keep, and have a great position that gives me the opportunity to break into new markets for my trade, as well as work doing something I'm halfway decent at, and also build a business I can be proud of.

I do ***** a little bit simply because the way things have grown have made my job (and a lot of other peoples) much more work, and because of the growth there are more and more hoops to jump through in order to get anything done.

This, of course raises the costs of our services... Some customers understand and others have a hard time with it. Unfortunately the ones that have a harder time are the ranchers, farmers and smaller businesses.. It's these types of customers that have led me to do some training in order to help them manage the burden more affordably.

How old are your kids? My boy is just pushing 2 and I'd vote for 36 hour days in order to spend more time with him. I can't get enough.. He's learning so fast that I want to be there to see every bit of it. Unfortunately I do have to work, but I'm thankful that I've got enough local business to at least not have to be out of town for weeks on end. I think every moment of his growth is a "formative" time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeburt View Post
As for "big box" stores... They aren't necessarily better - they are just better to have as an option. Bigger stores enjoy economies of scale and sell goods for a much lower price than small (typically locally-based) stores can. A good example would be the Co-Op grocery store in Bozeman. It is filled with local/organic products that are extremely deisrable but also extremely expensive. Because of my work ethic and resulting income, I can afford to shop there often. Not everyone (including me, several years ago, when I was starting out) can afford this. Grocery store chains, which typically imports it products that are much more cheaply produced from far away, are a godsend for people who are on a budget. If we were limited to soley the Co-op, people would have twice or three times the grocery bill, along with many fewer options. Ask anyone who works in one of the big grocery chains (my brother in law does) if they would like to see their "slave labor" ended and have a couple more local/expensive stores replace their current employer. They will probably tell you that if they knew they could get a job at one of the new places and it would pay as well or better, they absolutely would. The problem is that the same economies of scale that make the prices low and the store big also mean that the chain store employs far more people. Get rid of it and there will be far fewer jobs, and our worker might get lucky but is more likely going to be out of work.
I know what you mean about the Co-op.. I don't shop there, due to both the cost and some of the smug..
We hunt and garden, and buy a lot of our groceries direct, and also eat a lot of meat, eggs, veggies and grain that some of our friends produce at their farms and ranches, we help at harvest and during calving, (and whenever emergency help is needed) and they thank us in free or reduced price product. If you added this to a "work week" I'd be right their with you in 70 hour weeks, but work isn't so bad when your family is with you, and when it's done at the end of the day and you can sit down and relax together it doesn't even seem like work. (other than the occasional backache!)

It's interesting to me to see that the "Co-op" that is supposed to be non profit, and with all it's local goods has to charge more than places that filter their goods through middlemen... Oh wait, the people that sell to the coop have to live here and pay the inflated prices to survive! Seems to me that the cost of living has negated an outfit that started out trying to do some good for the community with quality product at a price they could afford. How do we fix that?

I don't know what else to say Zeeburt, I'll agree to disagree with some of your philosophy regarding economic growth etc.. I also think that you are working hard, and doing the best you can like the rest of us. It's a tough deal these days. Lots going on and lots of variables that we all are forced to deal with, without knowing you personally I have no idea what you do or how you run your business, and likewise you for me. Shoot both being in Gallatin County we could even know each other and not even know it.
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:49 AM
 
5 posts, read 13,000 times
Reputation: 26
It's interesting to me to see how often I hear similar sentiments from big city types/out-of-staters from every corner of the country & not just Cali. It's sad to see so many American people snowed & just swallow hook-line & sinker the "_AFTAs" & globalization lie.

Globalization is un-American, anti-democratic, anti-(American)labor of all flavors (white collar as well as blue)... and simply put is bad for you, bad for me and worse yet, bad for all of OUR children's future (and our nation's sovereignty, in case that matters to you).

Global corporations are little more than modern trust companies, which are illegal by the way (look up our anti-trust laws & the FTC). Global corps are loyal to only one thing: their bottomline. They will sell their souls to the devil to increase their already ungodly profit margins (look at the "American" companies that have recently agreed to work with the Chinese communist gov't in its intelligence activities, at a minimum against its own people...)

There's a reason that the Roosevelts championed the common interest of ALL Americans against the privileged few lurking behind the trust companies of the day. Over-bloated globalized firms have always steamrolled any/all competition that stand in their way of total market domination, which has been proven over & again in our history as VERY bad for consumers as well as the economic health & future of the entire nation.

It is not enough that just the top 1-3% of the nations population that runs/finances and profits from these massive firms are experiencing good economic times, while the standard of living for everyone else from coast to coast declines simultaneously as our personal fortunes are bled off & transfered to the already ultra-rich.

When the common good is callously pushed aside in favor of a "me first, I got mine - take a hike" mentality, it's time for the pendulum to swing back the other way for the benefit of all Americans.

This ugly phenomenon is nothing new though, beyond even the trust companies of old, and has a name you should become acquainted with: USURY (predatory profiteering / unrestrained greed-driven 'economic' tactics that unfairly advantages the few at the expense of the many).

That isn't any kind of -ism talking by the way, this is just common sense - look at the facts on the ground today, compare them to historic parallels and do the math.

Scorched-earth profiteering, including smothering Ma & Pop firms & small time/small town competition is NOT progress (except for those that stand to profit of course) and is NOT a good thing not only just for Montana, but for the whole country. Just addressing the recent problem in Montana though because that's OUR immediate home, a place close to our hearts that we care a lot about, and its OUR communities that are being usurped out from under us by a few people with the money and immoral, unethical will to displace locals (we can go screw) to create their own private idyllic mountain retreat &/or a private western 'themed' playground.

No, enough already.

If we don't stand up for our way of life and the future of our communities for all of our families and our children's children, who will? No more... if you fit the description above (this means you, "change the world" Californians et al, or developers from here as well as out of state) then you're not welcome any more. Look around not just in these boards - Montanans have had enough. You can only rob a community for just so long before people have enough & do something about it.

I can't speak for everyone of course, just myself, but I don't think I'm alone on this. It takes a lot to tick me off; I normally have nothing against fellow Americans from anywhere else moving here to share at least an appreciation, if not a love, for the place too; I'm not against anything here except being screwed out of our way of life that was passed down to us by pioneer stock who unlike in many other parts of the country, more often than not lived at peace alongside Indian, black & neighbors who recently immigrated from all over the globe. This was a true melting pot of a different sort then Cali or back east, where folks from all kinds of backgrounds uniquely lived beside each other, not separated from each other in enclaves, and not caring where they were from and all living as Americans & as Montanans.

Even during the Indian Wars it may not be widely known that there were many mixed marriages and Indian, White & mixed traded with each other and lived in relative peace together at least in the Bitterroot country. When Chief' Joseph's band came through during their war, then were welcomed as brothers and traded with locals as they passed through the Fort Owens/Stevensville area (my own Grandpa regularly delivered food goods, bibles, etc to a band of Indians living with a missionary up in the hills in a remote valley, remote even today and when they came down once a year they'd put their teepees up on the property to stay there while they shopped/stocked up for winter).

That's a good heritage & a unique one that forms the foundation of our communities here.

It's time folks do more than just vote (we vote and what's voted down gets shoved down out throats anyway - lot of good that does), or rolling over & playing dead for corrupt pols & a few new comers making arses of themselves at our expense while failing to support local businesses and our community. Its time to take a stand - you're NOT welcome here. We like our outdoor life, our small-town mentality in our communities (even if they aren't necessarily small towns anymore), we like our local small town stores.

I wouldn't go to your home community where you're from originally and try to re-make it into a little slice of Montana (although that might not be a bad thing... judging by a few of its representatives up here), don't try and pull that here. Straighten up and fly right or go home (and dont bother coming back).
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,815,162 times
Reputation: 672
Well said!
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