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Old 12-10-2013, 05:42 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,455,928 times
Reputation: 15488

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyMike11 View Post
I just wanted to point out, that as a kid growing up in New York, I was surrounded by trees, parklands, and had awesome clean beaches (1980s-1990s), and by the time I was in high school, that was all gone and paved over, and the beaches were filled with garbage. I left home at 18 and ended up in Bozeman when I was 24. This is happening everywhere, and Montana is on the tail end of it. When I worked in Alaska, they were tearing up the tundra to build subdivisions outside of Palmer. They aren't making any more land, but making a lot more people. This isn't going to stop, unless you "natives" stop selling your ranches. No one is moving in and taking your land... Why not take over a city council meeting with 5 or 6 people, threaten to vote out whomever you wish, and then have a representative initiate some laws which can protect the land and your way of life? The city and county set your tax rates that you guys are complaining about. Those people are your neighbors, knock on their door with some brownies.

To the person commenting on Walmart... Who voted for it? Hold these people accountable. You probably know where they live, so stop by their house and explain your issues. That is the advantage of being in a small town. Having done work in Hamilton, I know it's not that big.

Anyway, I also have never met anyone who hates out of staters in real life, only on the internet. Bozeman is filled with out of staters, but they can't last more than a few winters out here. I am here to stay, and most of my "native" Montana friends see me as their own. All this talk about out of staters gets old... I am by definition an out of stater, and no one I know acts like these isolated incidents you guys bring up. I don't vouch for Californians on here, but the middle class, young and middle aged Americans moving to Montana have the utmost respect for people living here. I don't think I am better than anyone else...

So just to have you know, a lot of my friends are from out of state as well, and we cherish the mountains and public lands here, and would never shut off access like some people mentioned earlier. Just the fact that it happens, should reflect on those individuals, not all out of staters. We are struggling just like you guys, and have to find jobs pay these outrageous taxes also, etc.

I hate to see all the development, but it is solely in your hands people, not some "out of stater". Don't talk to the developer, or the bank, if you are having problems financing the farm or ranch next year, use a co-op for a loan. Don't sell the family ranch, vote (but more importantly vote out), and set legislation which limits the type and nature of construction going on, and grandfathers in a set tax rate for a generation. It's really that simple, although it takes time. The state and Fed will honor your wishes as long there are no issues with eminent domain. This out of stater is with you on all these fronts... I do think there are people driving up prices and land values right now, forcing a lot of people (including myself) into renting, which is also expensive. It all stems from development, controlled by large banks and corporations, not from normal people from whatever state.
Being in Bozeangeles might give you the impression that you now have but is not indicative of the attitudes outside the major cities in MT.
In my experience the attitudes in Bozeman do not apply once you leave that area unless you transport yourself directly to other big cities like Missoula or Helena.

Go to places outside the "big" city, have a seat in the local eatery then strike up a conversation with the locals. As the conversation winds around to local happenings say something like "well in NY we did things this way, we should do that here". Or my personal favorite "this place is 20 years behind the times, when will it catch up with what we did in NY?"
It's not so much prices being driven up though that is certainly being blamed as part of it no, it's the problem of people coming to MT wanting the rural life and after being in that rural life for a short time bitc*ing about how things are done and wanting to change it to be more like where they left.

I am sad to admit we were like that the first time we moved to MT and we left after a year or two. We realized we'd messed up big time and moved back deciding to integrate instead of trying to "fix" the place we chose to move to.
We didn't care (anymore) that we had to drive to Spokane or Missoula to do any major shopping and like many "locals" were not happy about all the citification going on in Kalispell since with that development comes all the related problems. We didn't go into spasm when things didn't happen FAST, things run on MT time which may not be all that fast but they'll eventually get done. We didn't get the vapors because we couldn't get the latest greatest things right away,today, this minute or get that half-calf soy Latte at 3am down the street as the street rolled up at 8pm and didn't open again until morning. We didn't scream and rant when the plows didn't have the roads cleared whenever we decided to go out, we dealt with it knowing it'd get done.

We embraced where we were, granted there were things we didn't agree with as there is whenever you live somewhere but we never,ever again tried to interject "outsider" solutions as there are solutions that are available within the "local" beliefs (if that makes sense). Most of the solutions were what you might call "hick,hillbilly,backwoods, slow" or whatever but that's how they've lived there for years and years and LIKE it.
So, I'd say I'm glad you like Bozeman but realize it's more like "any-big-city" USA than "usual city" Montana.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,764 posts, read 16,837,299 times
Reputation: 9316
Also consider that the 'citification' of a rural area is due in part to the LOCAL politicians who have passed legislation that enables the citification to ocurr. You have the power to vote em out of office if you don't like their policies, but that rarely happens. The same scoundrels who passed the laws favoring the developers, keep their seats from one election to the next. It is so much easier to blame ( B lame ) the New Yorkers and the Californians, than it is to stand up to the local politicians.
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Old 12-11-2013, 07:22 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,455,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Also consider that the 'citification' of a rural area is due in part to the LOCAL politicians who have passed legislation that enables the citification to ocurr. You have the power to vote em out of office if you don't like their policies, but that rarely happens. The same scoundrels who passed the laws favoring the developers, keep their seats from one election to the next. It is so much easier to blame ( B lame ) the New Yorkers and the Californians, than it is to stand up to the local politicians.
You have a decent point <bold> and one that I've never quite been able to figure out. It could be that the old time locals are less political than the newcomers and are not used to using the ballot box in large volume but are more used to being able to talk to a person and display their displeasure. It could also be as plain and simple as money changing hands.

As an example, we had a city court "judge" who was not an attorney, never,ever been anywhere near a law school, ruled like a petty dictator and had been embroiled in her own scandals/hushed up criminal conduct throughout the years. She was not elected but appointed and has kept her post for years and years.
It got to the point where people were afraid to speak out publicly against her as they were dealt with in true "boss hog" fashion.
Why the locals didn't rise up truly baffled me, I do know many don't like confrontation, were afraid what would happen to them and theirs if they did (rightfully so) and were so busy in their own lives surviving it just wasn't high on the list (until they were somehow forced to stand in front of her).
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:10 AM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,780,481 times
Reputation: 9132
^One of the reasons that happens in many places in the Rocky Mountain West is that the land development/real estate industry long ago figured out how to "buy" local and state politicians. The developers have a huge lobby and national war chest to fund lobbying efforts. Any legislation that might regulate or curtail development activity in a positive way they attack savagely. One of their chief tactics is to use the favorite gambit that "They're trying to tell you what you can do with your land." There may be some truth to that in some cases, but what they don't say is that mostly what the land development slugs want is to have the profits of their development schemes privatized to them and the costs of the land development (infrastructure, ongoing upkeep of roads, etc.) socialized upon the taxpayers. So, the developers get to enjoy the profits, and the taxpayers--including those who gain no benefit whatsoever from the development--get to pay the costs. Of course, it doesn't take a genius to see who the transplants moving into that new development will side with. I saw how this game was played from the inside, and it is a truly ugly business. A bumper sticker that I've seen pretty frequently in the Rocky Mountain West rings pretty true, "Save the elk, shoot a land developer."
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:02 PM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,952 posts, read 22,455,928 times
Reputation: 15488
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
^One of the reasons that happens in many places in the Rocky Mountain West is that the land development/real estate industry long ago figured out how to "buy" local and state politicians. The developers have a huge lobby and national war chest to fund lobbying efforts. Any legislation that might regulate or curtail development activity in a positive way they attack savagely. One of their chief tactics is to use the favorite gambit that "They're trying to tell you what you can do with your land." There may be some truth to that in some cases, but what they don't say is that mostly what the land development slugs want is to have the profits of their development schemes privatized to them and the costs of the land development (infrastructure, ongoing upkeep of roads, etc.) socialized upon the taxpayers. So, the developers get to enjoy the profits, and the taxpayers--including those who gain no benefit whatsoever from the development--get to pay the costs. Of course, it doesn't take a genius to see who the transplants moving into that new development will side with. I saw how this game was played from the inside, and it is a truly ugly business. A bumper sticker that I've seen pretty frequently in the Rocky Mountain West rings pretty true, "Save the elk, shoot a land developer."
I've seen what you describe from just outside the "inner circle" as well. One of our neighbors was on the county council and supported tightening the subdivision laws to stop people from doing family transfers just to get around planning requirements.
He was right to do that and rammed it through BUT it cost him big time. The argument was "how dare they (the council) tell us what we can do with our land". Had nothing to do with "our" as in residents but everything to do with big dollar developments.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:46 PM
 
18,856 posts, read 31,604,866 times
Reputation: 26107
Not to stray too far off topic here, but on the subject of land development in Montana...what a mess. Developments are put up, with no planning for infrastructure. 100 houses built, oh, two lane road into town, no light. Duh! Developers should have been responsible for the upgraded infrastructure. Montana has some messed up regulations.

Back to hating on newbies!
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Old 12-11-2013, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,764 posts, read 16,837,299 times
Reputation: 9316
jazzlover wrote: One of the reasons that happens in many places in the Rocky Mountain West is that the land development/real estate industry long ago figured out how to "buy" local and state politicians.

Yeah they learned it by observing the developers in PA, NY, NJ, etc in the 50s & 60s. You have an excellent grasp of the root of the problem yet you continue to focus your disdain on the newcomers. To me, that seems like focusing on the tip of the iceberg, rather than dealing with the root of the problem that you so clearly elucidated. What not work WITH the newcomer, educate them, and influence them to join YOU in fighting the developers. They are already here. They are not going to leave. You might as well get the newcomers on YOUR side. You, more than anyone else on this forum, possess the skills to do so.
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Old 12-11-2013, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
11,820 posts, read 15,435,170 times
Reputation: 12085
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
^One of the reasons that happens in many places in the Rocky Mountain West is that the land development/real estate industry long ago figured out how to "buy" local and state politicians. The developers have a huge lobby and national war chest to fund lobbying efforts. Any legislation that might regulate or curtail development activity in a positive way they attack savagely. One of their chief tactics is to use the favorite gambit that "They're trying to tell you what you can do with your land." There may be some truth to that in some cases, but what they don't say is that mostly what the land development slugs want is to have the profits of their development schemes privatized to them and the costs of the land development (infrastructure, ongoing upkeep of roads, etc.) socialized upon the taxpayers. So, the developers get to enjoy the profits, and the taxpayers--including those who gain no benefit whatsoever from the development--get to pay the costs. Of course, it doesn't take a genius to see who the transplants moving into that new development will side with. I saw how this game was played from the inside, and it is a truly ugly business. A bumper sticker that I've seen pretty frequently in the Rocky Mountain West rings pretty true, "Save the elk, shoot a land developer."
Jeez the front range of CO has become nothing less than a giant cluster **** of epic proportions..

Last edited by ElkHunter; 12-16-2013 at 06:27 PM.. Reason: let the filted work
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,764 posts, read 16,837,299 times
Reputation: 9316
For me personally, when I move from one state to another I do so BECAUSE I like what the state I am moving to has to offer. But, not everyone thinks like that. Some people do indeed want to change their new state into the state they left behind. I'm not going to be the judge however and say that one preference is better or worse than the other. And often times, the changes suggested by the newcomer would actually make their new state a better place to live. Simply because things have always been done a certain way since time immemorial, doesn't make it the best way to do it. We all have blind spots. Without new energy coming into a place, we could all live blissfully within our blindness, and never even know it. As the saying goes.....Ignorance is bliss. Anywhere you go, there are many people who pridefully value their ignorance above all else...with no conscious awareness of it.
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Old 12-13-2013, 11:00 AM
 
Location: C-U metro
1,365 posts, read 2,722,984 times
Reputation: 1160
From lawyers, to zoning, to environmental regulation, to commerce, to social standards, to welfare, to budgeting, to government and just about everything else, CA is the pits. It's glory years are behind her and she should stand of an example of how to ruin a perfectly good state. Those people from CA, who think its so great, should shut up and learn why other states don't do what CA does. Then, possibly there may be a nugget of wisdom in what they say.

On land development, there is one overlooked factor in why the rancher has to sell, property taxes. When property taxes go up because the city annexes them in or annexes near them, the land values increase. Some ranchers run their businesses well but are not well enough to pay the increase in taxes. Eventually, the land value inflates to the point where they can't be profitable and they are forced to sell some or all of their land. It's what's driven the AG industry out of Western Montana.
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