Montana is not special (Missoula, Charlo: real estate, insurance, mcmansion)

[JoeJoeMan]

jimj wrote ....

I have a suggestion for you, why don't you go to school and learn to do something that will allow you to make more money

I think that pretty much sums you up to a T........."go to school so you can make money"..........it's all about the buck for you, ain't it jimmyj ?


jimj also wrote:

I think the schools here (where I live specfically) are in serious need of overhaul as they have lost all aspect of morals,good behavior and disipline and while I and others have fought to fix it for the last few years, we have been swimming against the tide and I am tired not to mention I am wasting valuable school time for my son. Too much "good old boy" and nepotisim to win and many parents who think that all you need to do is send your kid out the door in the morning to the big babysitter and your job is done. Not to mention all the district wants is more and more money to continue the inept job they are doing. Don't even get me started on the booze laden drugged up parents who live from last call to first call and totally let everyone else raise their kids of which there are many here. Disfunctional family creates disfunctional kids for the most part and then the disfunctional school has to deal with them. I know this happens everywhere to some degree but I have lived all across the US and NEVER have I seen it as prevelent as here. I also have never seen drinking elevated to the status that it is here. So, no I didn't create any of this mess and in fact have tried to help but decided that it was a task that was impossible. So in the end, your mess is your mess and you can't blame me for it and I can't fix it so off I go

Hey you should take some of your own advice .......
> "Except change - it's gonna happen"........
> "if you don't like it - do something about it"
Those are two things you told me when I said I didn't like the growth here......so why don't you take some of your own advise and suck it up and stay where you are....

And I don't think me or jensebel, are rude, mean, nasty or any of those thinks you mentioned, of course you are free to resort to naming calling all you like, it's a cheap way to try and win your argument, but I must say I find it a poor reflection of your own education of which you seem to tout.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I do beleive jenzebel was correcting in saying you are part of the "piliage and burn, rape and blunder and lay to waste" crowd.....but I would add to that, in somewhat of your defense that you just don't realize you are. But then again that is the sad part, that being that you really have no remose, and with that attitude we can be assured that places such as Montana will continue to fall into the likes of which, and follow in the path of such places and Calif....with the likes of to thank ... mr jimy

[jenzebel]

Originally Posted by jimj

I for one don't think you are horrible, just way more angry than need be. I think you may have the wrong impression or I have not made clear what my feelings are when I speak of growth. I don't believe that you should go to a place (like here) and start telling people "this is how we did it in xxx" and you need to change it, if it was that great where you came from why did you leave. No, this is how they do things here, and stop telling the people here to change. I do believe people are going to move here, like it or not but they SHOULD respect the values,traditions etc that are already here or not come. Some of the ways things are done here don't fit my ideas of what should be going on and the winters are hell on my body so I choose (and have the ability) to leave and look elsewhere,besides,you can't really get to know a place unless you live there a while right?

jimj--this is much of what I have been saying all along. I am not against people moving here that want to respect the culture that already exists here. In fact, I even made the quote--"if it was that great where you came from, why don't you move back" in another post. I guess I have mostly run into the other kind and I am disgusted. I have detailed in other posts how I constantly come across people telling me---"Well in California, we do it this way" etc. Those are the people I am sick of and there are plenty of them. The ones that come in and expect to block access to fishing and hunting that Montanans have had for years just because they move onto adjoining property, the ones that move in and expect to live in the wilds, yet don't want to do their part to avoid trouble with animals, the ones that move here and say, where are all the malls, etc. are the ones I can do without.

But even the well-meaning can cause problems in an area and not realize it. When they move in with outside money and use no discretion on how much they are paying for their new home, just because it is so much less than where they are from, they cause a problem.

The problem is that residents live at a certain standard of living based on the economy in the area and the jobs available. If outsiders come in and inflate the prices with their willingness to pay so much for property, much more than a resident could pay--it creates an artificial economy and it displaces and disadvantages residents already there. The new jobs that have come with increased growth in Montana haven't been higher paying jobs, they've been service jobs. So by moving in, paying higher prices for property, and increasing property taxes with property values inflating, it actually lowers the standard of living for many already living here.

So I still maintain that if someone wants to move to an area and they really care about the people there, they would challenge those high prices that some of these realtors want to charge. I ask that people start looking at the economy of these areas and realize that if they pay $250,000 for a house that, if there wasn't such a demand from outsiders would only go for $125,000, they WILL be hurting someone, perhaps many, in the community.

And I am not alone, I know many people from across the state, most of whom have lived here many years, some of whom have families that homesteaded here and they all feel the same way. So I guess according to MTTX, we are all retarded.

[NYMTman]

OK, time for some econ 101:

1.) The Fed creates boom/bust cycles by raising and lowering interest rates and driving inflation. When you lower the interest rate and devalue currency, obviously you make it advantageous to borrow (since the money you'd be paying back is worth less than when it was when you initially borrowed). Often that borrowing comes in the form of a home loan, driving the real estate market forward and prices upward. It's no surprise that, since Bernanke has developed more of a hawkish stance on inflation by raising interest rates (to save us from a dollar collapse), the housing bubble is bursting. Prices are down 1% compared to where they were last year.

2.) Industrial jobs are going overseas, killing the rust belt areas of the Midwest and Northeast. Drive through Baltimore, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland to see what I mean... it's like Butte but larger. Many of these people ultimately chased jobs in the South and California (the "sunbelt"), buying property where they moved. Prices skyrocketed, and now the natives of those sunbelt areas are now moving to Montana. Can't really blame the Californians; they're just trying to economically stay afloat.

Ultimately, you have two options. You can either let the free market play its course, which would result in the death of the rust belt (a crappy, miserable, crime-ridden area to begin with), but the rise of areas like Montana (an economic rise with associated downsides such as sprawl and culture change).

OR, Montana can secede from America and throw up a border fence on all four sides. Unfortunately for Montana, Montana relies trade with the outside for many of the basic necessities of life.

My opinion is that so long as Montana continues to enjoy free trade relations with California, New York, and other places (trade relations that Montana NEEDS), the exchange of people also necessarily takes place. Like it or not.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

it's all about the buck for you, ain't it jimmyj ?
Absolutely! Since I don't depend on anyone to support me I guess I need money to support myself.

jimj also wrote:

Hey you should take some of your own advice .......
Those are two things you told me when I said I didn't like the growth here......so why don't you take some of your own advise and suck it up and stay where you are....

If instead of trying to parse my comments you would read them you would see that I tried to fix them but unfortunately I was not successful and there was no reasonable chance that I would be anytime soon (ever try to deal with a school district?) so instead of wasting more of my son's short school time it is better to move on.

And I don't think me or jensebel, are rude, mean, nasty or any of those thinks you mentioned, of course you are free to resort to naming calling all you like, it's a cheap way to try and win your argument, but I must say I find it a poor reflection of your own education of which you seem to tout.

I don't believe I called you any names, in fact I told Jensebel that I didn't think she was horrible at all.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I do beleive jenzebel was correcting in saying you are part of the "piliage and burn, rape and blunder and lay to waste" crowd.....but I would add to that, in somewhat of your defense that you just don't realize you are. But then again that is the sad part, that being that you really have no remose, and with that attitude we can be assured that places such as Montana will continue to fall into the likes of which, and follow in the path of such places and Calif....with the likes of to thank ... mr jimy

Remeber the cardinal rule, PILLAGE before ou burn

Of course I have no remorse, why should I? Because you say so? Oohhh, I better repent now and ask the great Montana moose god for forgiveness. Let me be plain here, thanks to the fact we live where we do it gives me the right to live where I can afford to live until I don't want to anymore no matter what you or anyone else says. I am sure I can go back through some of your posts and parse out some pretty nasty things you have said but there is no possible benefit to any discussion now or in the future.

And yes, you can be assured that people will buy property here in the future and yes (oh my god!!!) sell it for a (gasp) profit.... This is just fine since we are not a dictatorship or communist state yet. So, like I have said before, get over it or don't it's your stroke

[Westernstarr]

I have to agree with you jenzebel, the same thing has happened here in Lancaster county. I call realtors here asking them what are the chances of finding a decent single home in the country for under 125k or better yet under 100k and they say I have as much chace as hitting the lotto. I think theres a couple of reasons for this, first its the folks that move in to this area with plenty of money and price out the local working class folks, second its the folks that see houses as investments and not like homes. What happened to buying a home to live in, raise your family, or retire in, not a way to make a buck. I'm not against trying to save something for a rainy day, but I'm against doing it if it means driving the housing market like a run away train, and in the process making it impossible for the working class to afford a home. Some will say that we have to work harder to buy a home, that we need dual incomes, and both work long hours, and in the process give up our families way of life with me working, and my wife taking care of us, and our home, and our kids having a traditional home not a rat race way of life. Well guess what we don't want to join the rat race we don't have to have the best of everything, its nice to have nice things but at what cost. Don't get me wrong I think we live well, and might be doing better than some, but the quality of my families life is more important than the quantity of life ( having the biggest and best toys and things) that many folks seem to be chasing now a days. So thats why we are searching for a new home be it close or far, and hopefully by the end of this summer.

P.S. Explosive growth is bad, very slow controlled growth that keeps the character of the community is better.

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Originally Posted by MTTX

My parents have lived in Montana all their lives and they say that people like Jizzabell and JoeBlowMan are actually a minority. They told me this problem with the some of the locals isn't new and has been around for along time.

Of course, parents that truly love their children will be apt to tell them anything to calm them down or make them feel better. And besides, I really don't think you meant to say that... really.

We'll hold our tounge for the most part though because..... we really do enjoy meeting new friends and we do what we can to assist.... it's just the way things are here. It's always been this way.

It's mostly the arrogance we can do without though. Once you are here, you aren't any better or worse than the rest of us.

Once you move here, and become a part of our communities, you will be gauged accordingly by all of those others that live outside of the state to be as "one of us".
It doesn't make any difference how smart "you think you are" or how "rich you think you are"...... you'll be Montanan...... and that's all folks are going to see.

JJM and others are right..... albeit they are much more vocal about it than most of the rest of us. Doubt me not.....The sentiment is there.

Sentiment aside, we'll be glad you made it.... and we'll do what we can to help you settle in.
If you turn out to be a jerk??... Well, then you better be ready to hear about it, because we are most famous for telling it the way it is.

Most who come here are "not" the financial elite. These are just looking for a simpler life, a job, a good school for the kids and so forth.

It's not an easy adjustment..... Not for them, or us.
Our economy is taking some hits, and some of our local folks are feeling the pinch as a result. But growth does this, unfortunately, so I can understand why so many of us want it to stop.

We've got it figured that if folks quit coming here, that it will stop, and we can get back down to the business at hand....... Living.

We Montanan's are a pretty tough crowd. We've been through any numbers of things over the years, and have weathered them all... and it's made us stronger each time.

This current boom will end, and we'll make it through..... I know, easier said than done right?... But we'll get there, and we'll pick up the pieces, just like we always do.

Only 1 in 10 who come here ever stay longer than 5 years..... so I'm looking for that big-ole-housing-glut to be coming along real soon.

[jenzebel]

Westernstarr--It is sad to hear about your area. I know Montana is not the only area experiencing problems from "too many, too quickly". The changes here may be even more dramatic considering we are more rural and we don't have much in the way of industry, except for tourism which creates a lot of low paying jobs. Timber and mining used to be big and those jobs paid well. Even the few "good" jobs left pay less than they do in many other states. The effects have been devastating to our economy. Couples working four jobs and still not able to afford a home, even with no children to support. I've seen elderly friends and neighbors have to sell their homes and find another part of the state to move to because they can't afford the property taxes on their retirement home on their limited income in areas that were discovered here.

As much as I don't want Montana to change, I realize people will move here. You sound like you have a good understanding and a good attitude. If the ones coming here only had your attitude, understanding and discretion and they didn't all come at once, it would be easier to deal with it.

[Cat & Wolf]

It was nice reading WESTERNSTARR's post. But, why are some people so angy when messaging about Montana? Must admit, I've fallen prey to the negativity myself , so I took a break from the forum. And, checking back today, I find once again, plain nastiness and spite. C'mon, people, we're all on the same ship.....

WESTERNSTARR, I have lifelong friends who are native Montanans. They are friendly, work for minimum wage, and are HAPPY. Their neighbors include wealthy native Montanans, who are friendly, welcoming, and HAPPY. Some people I met in Montana were "poor," friendly, and HAPPY. I know, hard to believe when reading some of these posts. These are realistic, hard-working people.I am fortunate to count them amongst my friends.

After several months of searching, I have found a job. A low paying one. It's my choice not to chase after a high-paying job. I'd rather live someplace with a lifestyle that I loved. So, as a soon-to-be-Montanan, I can now say to everyone, welcome.

To those of you who dream of moving to Montana (or anywhere you choose): KEEP ON! There are good people on this forum, and you'll meet many more when you move to Montana. Good luck!

[amylewis]

Originally Posted by Westernstarr

Growth is not always good, don't get me wrong it is nice to have some services and conviniences, but you get to a point that 20 star bucks are enough.

Growth for it's own sake is the philosophy of a cancer cell.

Amy

[britgirl]

Originally Posted by Heart

Yep. Pretty sure the first nations people, you know the native indians up here felt the same way when our ancestors were raping the land and killing their tribes so they could have a piece of the pie.

Funny How Jenzebel didn't respond to this quote.......Can't argue with the truth at the end of the day.........Out of curiosity "Jenzebel" what is your response to that quote?