Montana is not special (Missoula, Great Falls: home, camp, salary)

[IdaClaire]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

Idaclair wrote:


OK, I will - after 1990, how's that ? Why because that is when a dramtic change began to take place.

So someone who moved to Montana on December 31, 1989 is welcome, but someone whose moving truck stalled out and arrived the next day isn't?

Look- I lived there for several years and have family who are going through the same issues in Vermont and I understand the frustration. Many newcomers came in with West coast money and drive up real estate prices and taxes. SOME of those people tried to change the culture to resemble the very place they fled, and tried to tell the natives how they should do things. I get it. I am empathetic. I just think it's unrealistic to expect that anyone in the United States is going to phone up every resident of another state to ask permission before moving. That's just not going to happen, and as long as we are one nation with permeable state borders, people can move where they wish.

The other frustrating thing to me is that native born people of ANY state didn't DO anything special to be born there. It is a luck of the draw thing, not an accomplishment. Unless Montana secedes and becomes a country all by itself, or unless you bulldoze all of your mountains to remove the beautiful scenery, you're fighting a losing battle.

A normal Joe with a modest split level in most parts of California can sell their house and buy a mini ranch in Montana, so why in the heck wouldn't they? We're all going to do what seems best for us and our families and nobody ever thinks about how the people where they are moving are going to feel about it.. Think about all the people who complain about the nasty rush hour traffic when they commute. Does it ever occur to them that THEY are contributing to the nasty traffic, or do they see all the other drivers as the problem? You can't fight human nature.

[JoeJoeMan]

idaclaire wrote:

So someone who moved to Montana on December 31, 1989 is welcome, but someone whose moving truck stalled out and arrived the next day isn't?

Look- I lived there for several years and have family who are going through the same issues in Vermont and I understand the frustration. Many newcomers came in with West coast money and drive up real estate prices and taxes. SOME of those people tried to change the culture to resemble the very place they fled, and tried to tell the natives how they should do things. I get it. I am empathetic. I just think it's unrealistic to expect that anyone in the United States is going to phone up every resident of another state to ask permission before moving. That's just not going to happen, and as long as we are one nation with permeable state borders, people can move where they wish.

The other frustrating thing to me is that native born people of ANY state didn't DO anything special to be born there. It is a luck of the draw thing, not an accomplishment. Unless Montana secedes and becomes a country all by itself, or unless you bulldoze all of your mountains to remove the beautiful scenery, you're fighting a losing battle.

A normal Joe with a modest split level in most parts of California can sell their house and buy a mini ranch in Montana, so why in the heck wouldn't they? We're all going to do what seems best for us and our families and nobody ever thinks about how the people where they are moving are going to feel about it.. Think about all the people who complain about the nasty rush hour traffic when they commute. Does it ever occur to them that THEY are contributing to the nasty traffic, or do they see all the other drivers as the problem? You can't fight human nature.

obviously 1990 is not a fixed date, like Jan 1 1990 was the deadline, of course not, I was saying it half in jest....
Second, everything you say is true and I agree......
And it's obvious I can't, nor can anyone tell someone else where to live. But if you don't open your mouth and try and tell people that they are creating alot of problems for your state and its local people they'll never know. I said 1990 because up until then things were relativly nice here, it was pretty much what you would expect when you thought of montana, but it ain't like that anymore........and why...............________________you fill in the blanks.
That's life, you do whatever you want and if it bother someone else and they tell you about, well I guess that's their right to, that is to tell you what they think of you, which is what I do on this board, much to the dismay of many people..... Funny how they all move here and come piling in on the wave of a couple books and some movies, and then when you get ticked because they create problems and disrupt your way of life and affordability to continue to live in your own town - and then you tell them about it, they want to yell at you(me). Funny how that works, don't forget myself and alot of other people like myself live and lived here for years, when most people in the country would have just as soon saw montana disapear off the face of the earth, so we suffered to make a home here inspite of the economic disadvantages, and then what happens Montana becomes trendy....so I say hey you wanted Calif for the bucks, and now you don't like, well stay there, you made you bed now lie in it and leave mine alone....
So I ain't stopping nobody from moving here to Montana, how could I, what do thing I'm going to do ? get a gun and stand at the state border ?
I'm just saying what's on my mind, thoughts that are shared by alot of other folks here like myself.
So y'all feel free to move here, you don't need mine or anyone else's permission....just remember you ain't making life any easier, by a long shot, for those that already live here.

[fbcobrn]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

what do thing I'm going to do ? get a gun and stand at the state border ?
.

(What a visual....ROFL.....I see JJM standing with legs apart, guns on hips, shotgun in hand...old hand-rolled stogey hanging by a lip....hat pulled down over his touseled hair, squinty eyes, as he hollers....."git off muh land, greenhorn!" hahaha

[MontanaGuy]

IdaClaire wrote:

And unless you are a member of a Montana tribal nation, someone in your not too distant ancestry came to Montana from somewhere else, so it's just silly to make a fuss over it.

I agree completely. I was born and raised in Montana but in all honesty I don't see that as being particularly significant in this day and age. Americans tend to move around the country and we have every right to do so. This is still a single nation and the fifty states are just a part of it. I've read alot of the comments from a number of states and the attitude that "we were here first" is just ridiculous. All European decendents are relative newcomers to this continent and we need to put things in perspective.

[gowestgal]

It’s ironic. The complainers are upset about the influx of people and yet without the population increase they would not have things like internet access to post to such fine forums as this one. I find it hypocritical to only complain about the bad things an increase in population provides rather than realize what you gain as well. Granted, some may feel that the negatives out weigh the positives so that makes them “entitled” to complain because they were there first. Hmmm… maybe if you act like a big enough jerk people will be scared away from moving to your town? Give me a break. You complainers will just end up alone & miserable while the rest of us enjoy life in your town.

Maybe the complainers should jump on the birth control bandwagon since the increase in population can be attributed as the “root cause” of too many people/not enough nice places to live. Shame on you complainers for thinking you are any better than anyone else. Fed up and interested in selling your house and leaving Missoula or Bozeman MT? You just let me know because I want to buy.

[la_missourienne]

Great posts, MontanaGuy, IdaClaire and gowestgal! Historically, let's be honest here, the only people with a true right to complain about 'newcomers' taking over THEIR lands are the Native Americans no matter if it be MT or elsewhere. And now, we all have the right to move where we want, when we want because this is supposed to be the land of the FREE. It's a big shame that so many have to be negative about it because so many abuse the privilege; there are plenty of people out there that want to move with humble intentions and should be at least semi-welcomed in their respective new places as LAW ABIDING CITIZENS (sorry, I don't support ANY illegal immigrants anywhere in our country! but that's a whole other thread...)
Perhaps each state should issue a pamphet entitled "What you can expect living in ____ and what the locals expect of you"? Seems we should try to find a proactive solution along these lines to reduce this newcomer hosility...but yeah, I know, those who are the 'problem' ones probably wouldn't read it, so I don't know what can realistically be done. All I do know is that as long as the almighty dollar rules all walks of life, subdivisions will continue to ruin beautiful landscapes all across the country and box-stores with big $$ lawyers will keep sprouting up unless we have some sort of real revolution...yeah, that'll happen...

[JoeJoeMan]

Alright, alright, MontanaGuy, IdaClaire and gowestgal, let me say a few things....

I think alot of people, yourselves include are a bit upset that you are or are sympathetic to the, shall we call it the "late to the party crowd" (moving to montana) crowd, simple as that. And as such the late comers that are now crowding the room don't like being complained about, sorry what can I say, it was a nice party until it started getting so overly crowded.

And to address someone's remark about the you're-a-pee-ons being later arrivers to this country, we'll in the light of world history or human evolution, so are the native americans, besides to use your arguement we're all free to move where ever we want........so that's what the you're-a-pee-ons did, I'm being flip of course.
Or you could look at it this way.....the people living in MT pre-1990 feel the same way about the latest invasion of outsiders as did the people living in montana pre-1890. If you get my point. Which you don't seem to be doing, mostly because you are blinded by your own self interest.
Yup we all kinda ruined montana to a certain point by moving here, even the orginal orientals who came here, as they immediate depleted the large and now extinct larger mammals, then the second wave came from europe, now presently another wave is coming, and maybe it's not so much the numbers as it is the change for this wave as it was for the previous waves. Yup - you can blame everyone that came before....but there comes a point when it's time to say........enough is enough already and lets' try and preserve what we have left, sorry for the past, and we can't change it but enough enough enough already......can't we just leave what's little left be. Or should we all just keep piling in and ruining what's left of a land that still reflects back to what once was.
And so it's true, you are all free to do whatever you want or move where ever you want........And you are all free to be upset with me because I make you feel uncomfortable with that. Sorry, I'm also free, free to say as I will, but I'm not free to make my eyes stop seeing what they see happening here everyday, day by day.
No I don't really expect my ideas to be very popular, because I do understand that no one wants to hear that their wants, wishes and desires are causing hardship to other persons, places or things.

[dangerousdan]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

Or you could look at it this way.....the people living in MT pre-1990 feel the same way about the latest invasion of outsiders as did the people living in montana pre-1890. If you get my point. Which you don't seem to be doing, mostly because you are blinded by your own self interest.

I think that's the precise point others are making. Truth is, you're no more entitled to be here than someone who has lived here a day. I understand the frustration but your bitterness will only give you an ulcer and won't change things.

[tigergal]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

No I don't really expect my ideas to be very popular, because I do understand that no one wants to hear that their wants, wishes and desires are causing hardship to other persons, places or things.

So, everyone who moves into your state is causing a hardship by doing so? Does this include those who move to your state to accept jobs that have been available for 6 months (that apparently no one in Montana wants)? Would you rather these openings go unfilled? My husband is talking with a few hospitals in Montana about jobs that have gone unfilled since January for which he is extremely qualified. The hiring hospitals have bemoaned the fact that there has been little to no interest in the positions so far. (Why? I'm guessing the skill-set is under-represented there or that those with skill-set wish to live in other areas of the country. The pay is excellent, so that wouldn't be the issue at all.) So, by our family moving there (and not building a McMansion - wouldn't want it, don't need it and don't have the money to build one if we did) and fitting into the way of life that Montana holds now, we'd be causing a hardship to your state?

Would you truly prefer that jobs go unfilled in organizations that do positively impact Montanan's lives? I know of no way that my husband can do this without moving 2,000 miles and making our family's life there. Or would you just prefer to just make blanket statements without regard for the fact that needed jobs are going unfilled by the people who were already there before 1990?

[Bashful]

Well,
I lived in Montana for 23 years, and enjoyed almost every day of it, with an occaisional 'I hate the long winters' day thrown in. It's a beautiful State, even if I didn't really care for the prairie part, but even that portion has it's beauty, it's just not right for me, as I love the mountains and it's forest's with the springs and 'cricks', rivers and lakes. I lived in Missoula, and moved there back when it was still considered small. I watched it (Missoula) grow very little in the first ten years or so, then, it began an upward trend that probably began sometime in the early 90's. I remember one particular individual, who moved to Missoula from California, and all he did was complain that Missoula didn't have this and it didn't have that, and that Sacramento had all these great things and that Montana was so 'backward'!


Well, I moved to Montana in 1980, especially for my and my wife's, (Who is a Montana native), ease of mind for our kids education and lack of the drug scene that was becoming very prevelant, at the time, in the schools where we were living. So, we pulled up stakes and moved, and as we had decided a year or so earlier, that if we did move, Montana was where we wanted to go. My wife being very familier with Western Montana, suggested that Missoula was the place of choice, and so, after preparations were made, such as the job situation, which was easier for me, as I wound up taking a position with the Forest Service, after transfering from another Government agency, we found a home in the Rattlesnake, and began our Montana residency.


The way I looked at it was, sure, Montana was more rural and seemed to possess less of some of the 'conveniences' that we had become used to, but I moved there for specific reasons, and the so called lack of some things, wasn't going to deter us. I've always been a proponent of adapting to where you live, and not the other way around. It is you who must adapt, as you change your lifestyle to fit the area in which you live. You do what you have to do, and work around those little things that you might find annoying sometimes, but after all, if you want some of those things that you search for, then it is you who must become part of your community and give up some things that you might have had in your prior life in another area, I mean, that is what we moved there (Montana) for, for the peace and tranquility that those places that are off the beaten track, if you will, provides.


We loved it, and so we had to adapt, so what! It was great, and the kids?...........Yep, they did well too, and with all the outdoor activities that we enjoyed together, and the different calibar kids that our kids came to love and respect, did wonders for them. It was great.
Now, I can see both sides of having growth, as it brings in things that can be very convenient to us, and make life easier, but it also brings a lot of unwanted things as well, such as crime and the hustle and bustle of the type of things that you left behind. Having that place grow up around you, taking away some of those things that you hold dear, can be a sad thing, and as the old saying goes, 'You can't go home again'. I now know exactly what that means. So, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, I guess.


Take your pick. I suppose you can't blame someone for taking BIG bucks for land, and yet, on the other hand, you hate to see houses and malls where there was once forests and fields, rivers and wildlife. How many of us today, if we owned some valuable land, would or would not sell that land, if we were offered mega bucks for it? Some have principles that would not allow us to sell, but then again, there are others that may have an urgent need for the type of money that we otherwise could not get ahold of. Each of us have our reasons for living in a particular area, and as we now live in the State of Washington, and truely enjoy it, I suppose you trade one thing for another, and hope for the best.


I will always have very find memories of Montana, but our lives have changed, and so have our outlooks on what me may want or need. Yes, we hate to see a place we love, grow up and get what we percieve as crowded and overgrown, but growth is inevitable, no matter where you live anymore, at least any place that is really attractive to us...................because if we like it, then you can bet that there will always be someone else who likes it too, and sooner or later, they will come! And we all know the end result.


Bashful