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Old 09-11-2010, 05:23 AM
 
281 posts, read 728,309 times
Reputation: 299

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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingcat2k View Post
This story does not pass the BS smell test. FWP and County Sheriffs get a decent education on the Waters of the State law and there is only one private fishing stream in the state and it's on Huey Lewis' ranch (I'd estimate it cost him 500k to put it in and 2M in lawyer fees to keep it private). He also has to stock the stream and isolate his fish population from the fish population of the river (Madison River I believe).

More than likely, the people in this story were trespassing by using the street to access the river, not the river itself. The reason it has been labeled a private road is to prevent access but the people in this story, if real, can walk in from a fishing access or park or use the other side of the river if it is accessible. The Waters of the State end at the high line of the river which is often at least 2 or 3 feet above the river level so walking in to their spot is not unheard of.

By the way, restricting access to the river itself is nothing new. Some ranchers have always been twitchy about people crossing to access a river but, in their defense, something usually happened when somebody did something stupid and the rancher had a fiscal loss.
Wait, are you actually accusing me of fabricating this story? I live in Lolo. You're welcome to come on down and talk to the people yourself. My husband actually just spoke with the man the other day while taking our daughter for a walk. They've been run off several times. They were taking a dirt road path that has been used by vehicles to access the river for... jeez, many many years. Their family has been living down from that path and have been using it as an access to the river. Then along came some property owners who bought out the land that this path happened to be attached to. They were told not to go down it anymore, after going there for many years. It is a sad story, and it is truth.
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Old 09-11-2010, 05:25 AM
 
281 posts, read 728,309 times
Reputation: 299
Oh and by the way, I think it stinks that these arrogant people come in and don't want the public driving down their little road, which has been there long before they were born.

What is even far more pathetic is that these same people bought up a strip of land and built up cheap looking houses that are so close together it's unreal. They can't sell them. They lease them out for $1500 a month! Who in their right mind has this kind of money? They sit there empty. Same people telling natives they can't walk down a flipping dirt road. I do feel very sorry for those who have been here having to deal with this type of encroachment.
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Old 09-11-2010, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,581,125 times
Reputation: 2952
What is Montana law regarding a private access that effectively becomes a public access easement, because it's been in public use for too long??

What about existing easements that are restricted without protest for too long, are they lost?

I remember years ago Gallatin County was going to close off a shortcut thru a gravel pit that the whole neighbourhood had been using for decades; there was an uproar and they decided not to do it after all. But that was county-owned land which might be under different laws.

Most places that have a waterways-access law will allow you to walk down the riverbank, getting no further than NN-feet from the water, but will not allow trespass across other private land to reach said waterway.

All laws aside, it's just poor neighbouring to be such a twit about it, when no damage is being done and if no one's privacy is being invaded.
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Old 09-11-2010, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,389,137 times
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Last year there was a discussion on water-ways and access. Somebody posted some of the laws. I just did a search and couldn't find it. But the way I understood it is Private land is Private. They can restrict access. However, water belongs to the state. You can float down the river/stream and if passage is not available for the boat (too shallow or rocks or some obstruction) you can legally get out of the water and transit around the obstruction. Reasonable around. Not half mile into the woods and back.

But the one thing I couldn't find back then is walking down the river, as in fly fishing. It was pretty vague (at least the part I was reading).

Not sure about unused easements.

As far as good neighboring. Remember, your neighbor is no longer from Montana. California, Georgia, Florida, Texas, Oregon, Washington, etc... So they are worried about you breaking your leg and then sueing them. You and I know that it was your fault for doing something stupid, but they don't see it that way. People sue because "YOU" didn't provide a safe passage and maintain it properly.

I had a neighbor here that had a 2 acre lot in town. Kids have played baseball there for years. He even erected a backstop for them and a chain link fence. It is now shut down. His insurance company saw it and threatened to cancel insurance on all of his properties if he didn't close off that liability.

So it's not just the people, it's the insurance companies pushing for it.
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Old 09-11-2010, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,581,125 times
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I think Rickers might have posted the info, in one of the discussions about river floating, but I don't remember for sure either. Nor do I recall how restrictive it is. What comes into my head is something like you're allowed to go as far as 10 feet above the high-water mark away from the water, if necessary for access, but I might be misremembering.

What Elk says about insurance and fear of lawsuits is all too true. When I was a kid, vacant lots were our playgrounds. No one worried about it; if you fell down and broke your arm that was your problem, not the lot owner's. No more! now every skinned knee has an ambulance chaser looking after its "best interests".

In CA you will rarely find a vacant lot that's not either fenced off, or signed NO TRESPASSING (and by the lack of kids ignoring the sign, it's apparently enforced). And people wonder why kids play in the streets? (Parks are too restrictive, being all manicured and inflexible, so really are not suitable as everyday kid-areas. Kids get bored with that real fast.)

We lost all our good dog training areas down the canyon because the gravel pit's lawyers threw a fit and got them all fenced off.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:01 PM
 
20 posts, read 40,461 times
Reputation: 45
"We have tried to cater to the greens by building windmills all over the place, but now there are land developers suing to keep the transmission lines from being built."

You do realize that those "windfarms" are so YOU have clean electricity now, and in the future, right? So, it's not just for the "greens", or you don't use electricity.

And you do realize that those "land developers" are most likely anti-progress conservatives who want to hold the future hostage for the sake of their greed, right?
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,389,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blf53 View Post
- snip -
You do realize that those "windfarms" are so YOU have clean electricity now, and in the future, right? So, it's not just for the "greens", or you don't use electricity.

And you do realize that those "land developers" are most likely anti-progress conservatives who want to hold the future hostage for the sake of their greed, right?
Then, just out of curiousity, why do the transmission lines lead "out of state?"

And you could state "Anit-Progress people" instead of trying to make this a political issue. In this case it's every political party that is trying to step transmission lines "on their property". Everybody says their good, but put them in the neighbors yard, not mine.
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:48 PM
 
Location: In The Outland
6,023 posts, read 11,880,577 times
Reputation: 3535
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingcat2k View Post
This story does not pass the BS smell test. FWP and County Sheriffs get a decent education on the Waters of the State law and there is only one private fishing stream in the state and it's on Huey Lewis' ranch (I'd estimate it cost him 500k to put it in and 2M in lawyer fees to keep it private). He also has to stock the stream and isolate his fish population from the fish population of the river (Madison River I believe).
If we are talking about a so called stream that a person installed for 500-K on his property then it would most likely be considered a canal even if it looks natural and would be exempt to the states stream access law. I may be wrong but I doubt it. I am only aware of the old "Sleeping Child Hot Spring" that was or still is owned by Huey Lewis then it may have been an old oxbow of one of the forks of the Bitterroot river or a feeder stream or diversion. Rich folks get their way generally.

Another thing is that many folks don't give a flying-rats-ass about what the law say folks can do. You can still get shot at for obeying the law. I've been shot at just for standing on the shore of the Clark Fork River by someone in a group of houses on the other side of the river. My wife and I just got out at a public park, the dog was getting a drink and I get shot at.
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:03 PM
 
Location: In The Outland
6,023 posts, read 11,880,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blf53 View Post
And you do realize that those "land developers" are most likely anti-progress conservatives who want to hold the future hostage for the sake of their greed, right?
The first part of this post I have no issue with but this portion I quoted is total B Freaking S.
Another thing is if you don't live in Montana what is this "We" stuff you started your post with ? This thread is about Montanans not wanting newcomers.
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,540 posts, read 12,581,125 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickers View Post
If we are talking about a so called stream that a person installed for 500-K on his property then it would most likely be considered a canal even if it looks natural and would be exempt to the states stream access law. I may be wrong but I doubt it.
That's an interesting question. I'd guess if it's got flowing water, it probably falls under water rights laws, no matter if you dug it yourself, because the water still came from elsewhere, and by definition the state owns all flowing water.

I know if you have a private pond, even one you dug yourself, and stocked with fish yourself at your own expense, you need a fishing license to fish in it and must respect catch limits -- I was amazed to see that in MT state law! Not sure how access laws might apply to such a pond.
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