Quality of Life (Billings, Missoula, Bozeman: ski resorts, lease, house)

[Joe Doer]

I grew up in Montana attending UM and moving to California in 1988.

There have been problems in Montana long before in influx of population that seems to be getting the blame for all the problems.

Butte and Anaconda were as beautiful as any place in Montana before mining tore up those areas. Missoula had some of the worst air pollution in the country until the teepee burners were shut down. The forests were beautiful until logging companies cut them down for homes and developers built ski resorts. The rivers flowed freely until farmers dammed them for irrigation. Bison roamed the plains by the millions until they were slaughtered. What I am getting at is things change and some are not all good. But...none of that stuff was caused by a small influx of people from outside the state in recent years.

Quality of life changing? Don't blame outsiders for the out of control drug problems in Montana. The meth craze is homegrown. The crap people watch on TV and the theaters and listen to on the radio also contributes to the problems. But...we live in a free country. Starbucks and Wal Mart would not build new stores if nobody patronized them. Believe me, none of the new chain stores in Montana were built to cater to newcomers to Montana. It is easy to blame our problems on someone else, but maybe we need to look in the mirror.

Montana is one of the greatest places on this planet and my wife and I both want to move back there for retirement. We won't be buying a million dollar house, a hobby ranch, or property to make private for our own hunting and fishing. We just want to enjoy time with our friends and family and enjoy the beauty of the state.

Some people talk about the state being crowded. Have you every flown over Montana in a commercial jet? If you have, you may not even see evidence of a population of people. That can also be said of most states including California which is home to 10% of our country's population.

[JoeJoeMan]

Good thing you'll be moving back to MT from California, you gonna need the big bucks from selling the Calif house to move back here now. Yup things change.

As far as crowded, crowd is defined as how many people are in an area, not how many people aren't in it......you made the case that about flying over montana and not seeing many people...........well if you look at it that way California ain't crowded either just fly over the sierras down there....or just look up at the universe, in comparsion to the universe Calif isn't croweded either....
But we've cover this topic before on here...........suffice to say, in western montana urbanization is confined to the valleys, you ain't gonna build in the Selway, or the Bitterroot mountains, etc,,, all the growth is in the low lands and valleys of which is a fraction of the overall size of western MT, so for exaple driving down the bitterroot on Rt 93, why is there so much traffic if there is so much space in montana ? Because everyone is crowding in the the small area that small areas, making one feel very very crowded.
I hear rush hour in Bozeman is out-a-control, why is there so much traffic if there is so much open space ? Don't answer that, it's my way of making a point.
Best of luck when you retire and move back.

[Joe Doer]

You are absolutely right about valley areas. California is the same way. 22,000,000 people all crammed into cities and close-in suburbs. Unfortunately thats the way it will always be as people need to live close to services. I would love to live in a very isolated area and enjoy peace and quiet, but when one needs an emergency room you can not be living somewhere out between Lincoln and Helena. I hear you can hardly find fishing access on the Bitterroot River and none on the Ruby River. I would love to live on a river, but could never limit access. That is not cool.

[A Neighbor]

JoeJoeMan makes a few very valid points, as far as your comments Joe Doer, I agree that it is not all the outsiders moving in that is creating all of our problems but when it comes to your saying that you won't restrict access that is very noble of you. The sad truth in MT is that the very opposite thing happens way more frequently then what you say you would do. I know of one place in Sprindale that we used to hunt and spend Christmas's at when I was growing up. We also helped with their irrigation and moving cows. They sold to a guy from TX and guess what, no one is allowed to hunt on it or anything else. This is getting to be the norm and it is what makes us so defensive and gets our hairs standing on end. We just lost another place to hunt in Rosebud county, one of the largest land holdings here to a out of stater who doesn't want anyone hunting on it.
The really sad part of this is that it will affect the animals more than those who want to preserve them realize. They will become overpopulated and want to continue to reside on their undisturbed haven and then they will have diseases. What started out as a very sweet idea has now turned into a devastating problem. Real conservations understand that all wild animal populations need to be controlled either by natural predation or by hunters. If it is done responsibly on all parts then there are no problems.

[CTC]

Originally Posted by A Neighbor

JoeJoeMan makes a few very valid points, as far as your comments Joe Doer, I agree that it is not all the outsiders moving in that is creating all of our problems but when it comes to your saying that you won't restrict access that is very noble of you. The sad truth in MT is that the very opposite thing happens way more frequently then what you say you would do. I know of one place in Sprindale that we used to hunt and spend Christmas's at when I was growing up. We also helped with their irrigation and moving cows. They sold to a guy from TX and guess what, no one is allowed to hunt on it or anything else. This is getting to be the norm and it is what makes us so defensive and gets our hairs standing on end. We just lost another place to hunt in Rosebud county, one of the largest land holdings here to a out of stater who doesn't want anyone hunting on it.
The really sad part of this is that it will affect the animals more than those who want to preserve them realize. They will become overpopulated and want to continue to reside on their undisturbed haven and then they will have diseases. What started out as a very sweet idea has now turned into a devastating problem. Real conservations understand that all wild animal populations need to be controlled either by natural predation or by hunters. If it is done responsibly on all parts then there are no problems.

I have been spending quite a bit of time in Billings, and one thing that strikes me is the lack of public lands/access. Everything is posted, and fenced off, I do not think you can blame out of staters for that.

We are considering moving to Billings from Western CO, but the lack of public lands is a huge negative for us-I mean the country side is nice-but all you can do is look at it unless you know a rancher or something.

[ElkHunter]

Actually, there is a lot of BLM land. State land that is leased to ranchers. You are allowed on that land, even though it is fenced. But it's still polite to stop at the ranch house and speak with the rancher so that he knows who that is wandering through his cows.

Used to be an Atlas made by Gazzette or something close to that. You can pick one up for Montana and it maps out all BLM land. It's like an 80 page atlas and only has Montana in it.

[CTC]

Originally Posted by ElkHunter

Actually, there is a lot of BLM land. State land that is leased to ranchers. You are allowed on that land, even though it is fenced. But it's still polite to stop at the ranch house and speak with the rancher so that he knows who that is wandering through his cows.

Used to be an Atlas made by Gazzette or something close to that. You can pick one up for Montana and it maps out all BLM land. It's like an 80 page atlas and only has Montana in it.

Thanks! I have that map and it seems to me those BLM pieces are very small (compared to the ones around here)-and they are not labeled as BLM land in the field. I could program my GPS to find them I guess-hard to know which rancher holds the lease though.

wandering through a small parcel overrun with cows doesn't sound like too much fun-but if one could find a parcel which wasn't being used that would be pretty good. Thanks for the good idea.

[A Neighbor]

Another idea would be to get the Block Management books through Fish Wildlife & Parks. They are the best sources for hunting on private lands in MT. What we have found personally is that the ranches I am talking about and many more have been closed off to public hunting and they do happen to be out of state people or organizations that have bought them. We have not had a problem hunting big game or birds on most of the other ranches in our area that are still owned by locals.

There is also a lot of land that is in National Forest that is very good public hunting. Some good resources would be the Montana Atlas & Gazetteer by DeLorme and http://www.mytopo.com/ or the Montana Cadastral Mapping Project at http://gis.mt.gov/

[Rickers]

And don't forget the fact that in Montana under current law you can legally go onto any one's land unless it is signed with a orange or red plaque of a particular size or red painted fence posts or posted with a "keep out" or no trespassing sign. A simple "private property" sign is not sufficient to keep people off your land. Also there is the Stream Access law that allows public travel along navigable streams below the normal "high water mark" These laws are under constant legal challenge by large moneyed ranch owners. Get a Forest service map for any areas you wish to wander or hunt. These maps show general land ownership and although trespass is permitted on unsigned land, hunting may not be so obtaining permission is required for hunting but not necessarily for flower picking or hiking and such.
Note: If you are shot by an ignorant land owner it will be the same as if you got T boned at an intersection while going through a green light .
They will write on your headstone

" I HAD THE RIGHT OF WAY ! "

[A Neighbor]

Rickers, very good point to bring up and to keep fighting for.

It is always nice to notify a land owner when you are going to cross their land to gain access to state land or rivers or streams but it is not required (some might have a better route to use or a specific spot that they would rather you cross on). If it is posted then I would stop and ask, you never know when a land owner might not mind someone walking across their land, they just do it to deter everyone from doing it by all manners & without concern for the condition of the ground. It also helps to form a relationship with them by bringing them some of your catch or a thank you card when they are kind to you.