Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada > Montreal
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-16-2012, 01:57 PM
 
25 posts, read 70,272 times
Reputation: 15

Advertisements

Hi all,

We are a family of four - my husband, me, & our 14 y.o. twin boys who will be relocating to Montreal at the end of Sept/beginning of Oct. My husband knows French quite well and our sons have been studying it for 2 years. My French is weak (I studied Japanese) and welcome the opportunity to improve my language skills. We all want to become fluent in French and would like to live in a French-speaking neighborhood. My husband and I are cognitive psychologists and have worked with learning disabled children and adults to help them succeed in academics or vocations. For us, education is a core value and believe that everyone is capable of learning. Our biggest concern is what school would be a good fit for our boys. They have been attending a public school in the suburbs of NYC and will be entering 8th grade in the fall. I have read the Fraser reports, and criticisms of the Fraser reports, and articles about the Accueil program on the government and Montrealities websites. Unfortunately statistics don't tell the whole story about a school and I have only found negative reports about the Acceuil program. Essentially we are progressive people who want our kids to be in a culturally diverse French-speaking school that encourages creativity and is strong in the math and sciences. Does such a school exist?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-17-2012, 08:29 AM
 
61 posts, read 117,333 times
Reputation: 76
First off, it's so great that you are looking to to move to Montreal but embracing the french language rather than asking for advice on how to "get by" without it. The thing you need to be prepared to understand is that the French that your husband knows and the french that your two kids have been studying is probably "international" french, which is quite different than the local dialect, which is very distinct, that is spoken in the streets of Montreal - the "quebecois accent". I'm a french speaking american in Montreal, and I still have trouble with it sometimes - but usually all you need to do is ask whoever you are speaking with to repeat themselves - and if they are bright enough (...this doesn't always happen) they will realize you're not Quebecois and they'll adjust their slang and accent for you. Think of it as someone learning American English, and then going to speak to anglophones in Ireland or Australia.

But, it is true that in professional settings, like health care services, and schooling, the French is more "proper" and international. I am not sure about which school for your kids, you might want to look into francophone private schools. An anglophone private school would have french courses, but it would be totally English and probably wouldn't help your kids immerse themselves. You should get more details about this "accueil" program, I'm not sure what that is.

In terms of neighborhoods, it works like this: while all of Montreal is considered french-speaking, the "western" half of the island is a bit more anglophone (both traditionally and just in terms of feeling), and the "eastern" half is more francophone. The sections in the downtown-core/middle are heavily bilingual - as are most places west of St-Denis. If you want a good francophone neighborhood, le Plateau is a good choice, specifically the eastern half which tends to be more authentically francophone. However it might be a bit of a "busy" neighborhood for a family with kids (I think it'd be great, personally. I would have loved to grow up here). Another nice option is St-Henri, a charming neighborhood in the South West, very heavily bilingual. Depending on your income level, you could also try Outremont, which is seen as a bit of an upper class francophone neighborhood. For one thing, it is one of the prettiest, most aesthetically pleasing neighborhoods I've ever seen (well, so is the Plateau), and since it's more of an upper-class francophone community, the french might be a bit more 'refined' instead of the slangy, abbreviated dialect you'll find elsewhere. If you want real urban Montreal french, any neighborhood in the "east end" will do - but these aren't exactly the "multicultural, progressive french speaking" neighborhoods you are looking for (I'm talking Frontenac metro and pushing furthest east) - they're more like francophone cultural territory and I'm not really sure that an anglophone family would be embraced, despite their good intentions... they're a bit more working-class neighborhoods, which carries with it a sort of protectionism. If you're looking for a suburb, there's Repentigny, which is francophone but middle class, and not too far from the last subway stop on the green line, I believe. But from the sounds of it you want to live in the city itself, which I think is best.

You'll eventually understand the dialect and accent, BTW - it depends on how long you do immersion for. I notice that for myself, it also has a lot to do with how fast someone is speaking to me... if someone is speaking a mile a minute, I just ask them to slow down.

One option for you that I would highly recommend is to do full time courses at Centre St-Louis, located in the Plateau. It is inexpensive, and such an open and inviting atmosphere... the people who work there are truly dedicated to helping others better their french in order to live more comfortable and whole lives in Montreal. Ridiculously sweet people - I wouldn't be surprised if some of the admins had social justice kind of backgrounds as well as language instruction. 40 hours a week there for a few weeks and you will start to get the hang of things in no time! Hope to go back some day.

Raising your kids in Montreal is going to be amazing for them, so much better than suburb of NYC I imagine.

I'd like to ask you a question in return - why are you moving from NYC to MTL? I'm doing the opposite, and always wondering if I'm making the right choice. But, I'm 24 and not ready to settle down, and I figure I can just come back to MTL later on if I want to establish permanency somewhere... I'm wondering, how was immigration process for you? I imagine they granted you workers visas, what kind of criteria helped you the most? How expensive was the process, and how long did it take? I'm hoping that any person with a high education level and french-skills would have a relatively easy time being granted a work permit, but I'm not really sure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2012, 10:33 AM
 
25 posts, read 70,272 times
Reputation: 15
I really appreciate your take on the neighborhoods - its very helpful! I'm currently reading a book called, "Sorry, I Don't Speak French: Confronting the Canadian Crisis That Won't Go Away" by Graham Fraser. It is clear that immigrants really need to know the history of Quebec to really understand the culture. My great-grandfather emigrated from England to Montreal and married my great-grandmother, a Montreal Canadien whose family went back many generations. After they married they ended up emigrating to the US to find work. They ended up in North Adams, Massachusetts where many immigrants from Canada came to work in shoe factories. Sadly, my great-grandfather was terribly alcoholic and my grandfather who was the eldest in a family of 8 children had to work in a shoe factory as a young boy. He never went beyond grade school, however, he worked his way up, first as a messenger on roller skates traveling from one end of the factory to another. Then he learned how to design shoes. He ended up owning his own company and eventually went over to England after the war to help rebuild shoe factories there. Long story. In any event, I don't know a lot about my great-grandmother because my grandfather died when my father was 16. I'm sorry that he is not alive to find out more about her. The one thing I know from my grandmother is that my great-grandmother spoke French (I'm sure Quebecois) and because my grandmother did not speak French they had little contact with each other. My mother is very big on geneaology and can't wait for me to learn some French so we can look at documents and databases that are in French. I will definitely check out the courses at Centre St-Louis.

We are moving to Montreal quite simply because we want a change in lifestyle. We all want a change. My husband and I are interested in intellectual pursuits which is hard to do in a community that is predominantly mercantile. We lived in NYC for many years and moved to the suburbs for the schools when we learned we were having twins. Our kids have had a surprisingly innocent childhood - yes they know lots of things I never knew at their age, but they lead insulated lives. Therein lies the problem. There are 5 African American children in their middle school and the other minorities are children from China, Korea, or India. That's it. They wish they lived in a place with more diversity, so do my husband and I. They also want to be in an urban environment - one of my sons wants to study graphic design and my other son is very interested in multimedia and social events! They also like the idea of some independence and public transportation - where we live I need to drive them everywhere.

My husband loves the French language and has wanted to share it with us. One of his favorite authors is Balzac who he reads in French. (One of our other favorites is James Joyce - we can't wait to celebrate Bloomsday in Montreal next year!) When we visited Montreal we were struck by the quality of books people were reading on the buses and metro. We love books (even e-books!) and are overjoyed that Montrealers have such a passion for books. My husband has been writing books and would like to pursue this in Montreal.

I want to move to Montreal because it has many research activities. I'm particularly interested in innovations in mobile technology and its applications to assistive technology, gerontechnology, and mental health. We are working on a mobile app here and we would like to do this in Montreal. Of course, I am looking forward to meeting new people and having new experiences. I love art and music and Montreal has all that and more! (Montreal has the best graffiti!)

In terms of emigrating to the US - why are you moving? Are you going for work or school? NYC is a fascinating city - it truly never sleeps. We are amazed by its ceaseless transformations. One drawback is that it is expensive. Just as an aside, did you know that Boston is a sister city of Montreal - I can see the parallels. We are working with a relocation agency in Montreal. We need to sell our house before we can move. Luckily we live in a region of the US where the housing market is healthy. My neighbors moved from Montreal to the US because they work in the pharmaceuticals industry. They were here a long time before applying for green cards - they have kids and they want to spend vacations with their family in Montreal so they travel back and forth all of the time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2012, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Southern New Hampshire
542 posts, read 890,911 times
Reputation: 643
Bleusakura,

I did the opposite of you. I moved from Montreal to NYC for career reasons many years ago. I am now in another part of the US but do return to Montreal a few times a year to visit parents. I still love Montreal, especially in the summer. I do return every year at Christmas and can only describe the weather during the winter as miserable. Compared to the NYC area, you will have to get used to fact that is snows 3-4 times a week. Schools are almost never closed and snow is not a reason to be late for work.

From my view, you will have to get used to two things: 1) nothing can prepare you for the amount of taxes that will be taken out of your paycheck. The federal tax rates are about the same in both countries, but the province will take 3x more that NY State does. The plus side is that there are no medical premiums; 2) It will take you a lot longer see a doctor than you are used to. Getting an appointment "next week" to see a specialist is almost unheard of. The whole system is completely different. There are no insurance companies involved (which, IMO, is a huge plus) but it is a single-payer system with really no complaint department.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2012, 02:12 PM
 
25 posts, read 70,272 times
Reputation: 15
My husband and I grew up in the North - he in New Hampshire and I in Ithaca, NY. So we have some concept of snow and cold. Our children on the other hand have had little experience with the white stuff, especially last winter - it snowed twice here - once on Halloween and one day in December! Ah, taxes, taxes, and more taxes. What is taxed and not taxed in Montreal?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2012, 03:25 PM
 
61 posts, read 117,333 times
Reputation: 76
Quebec has the highest taxes in North America. Personally I think it pays off, this is hands down the closest society in North America to resembling a proper European social democracy. Education is inexpensive (esepcially when considering the CEGEP system), health care is free, and in terms of civic society, we take a lot of pride in that. Oh, and the rent control laws are way, way better. Although I agree with the other poster that, yes, the health care system can be extremely frustrating and slow... that is a major difference than the US. I've waited hours just to see a doctor for ten minutes. Scheduling an appointment in advance at a health clinic helps, though, but if you need to see a doctor right away, unless you are severely injured or having an allergic reaction, good luck. I waited for hours in the ER while various glass cuts on my hands continued to bleed, finally got stitches hours later, which I doubt was good for the wounds.

If you and your husband grew up in the North, particularly Ithaca an NH, you two will be fine and your kids will get used to it. It gets a little depressing around mid-february until spring (late march) since that is when it starts to feel like it is dragging on and on. But I think the winters, especially in the beginning, add a lot of character to the city.

And uh, pretty much everything is taxed.

It sounds like Montreal will be a perfect fit for you and your family. It's really interesting to hear an outsiders perspective - I always figured NYC was just as intellectually oriented as Montreal, if not more, despite the economic differences. As for racial diversity, there is obviously racial diversity and multiculturalism in Montreal, but I think the linguistic diversity is what really shines through here. People talk about language a lot, it's cool. Your kids will love the place too - there is an excellent graphic design program at Dawson college, among other places, and tons of social events, and the public transit system is wonderful... just wish the metros were open all night. And it's funny that you mention Montreal's great graffiti - I actually just got back from biking around some neighborhoods and ended up taking a few shots (Instagram) just for fun.

About the US - I meant to ask you how was *your* process of immigrating to Canada *from* the US. I'm actually American, I moved to Montreal 5 years ago when I was 19 for University, and pretty much never left. I stayed and worked every summer. I graduated university a year ago and then got a job. I learned french throughout the time I was here, especially after the first 2ish years. So I'm moving to NY for graduate school (The New School), but also because, while I could stay in Montreal and be content and probably live a good life, I'm not quite ready to settle down and I still want to see what else is out there, study in another city, and just do something different. Montreal is great and I seldom feel bored here, but I guess I'm just worried that my life will feel too routine too quickly. I'm all-too-aware of the social problems in NYC (I think it sounds way too expensive, way too capitalist, individualistic, violence issues, etc.) but I am also aware that it's still the center of the literary arts, besides London, and that's what I'm focused on, so I feel like I at least need to give it a chance. I am totally open to the possibility of living there for a few years and then coming to the realization that it's a metaphor of everything that is wrong with the United States, and then deciding to move back to what I see as a french quasi-socialist culturally leftist metropolis right across the border. However, I'm not sure what the process would be like trying to gain a work permit, which is why I asked you what it was like. If I ever decide to try and move back, I might not be economically sponsored or married, but I will have a B.A. from a Canadian university still, and by that time an MFA from a US uni, as well as a year of solid work experience at a big Canadian start-up and intermediate-advanced level french. I am hoping with those qualifications, if I ever wanted to return to Quebec they would be welcoming.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2012, 05:22 PM
 
25 posts, read 70,272 times
Reputation: 15
You are in a truly magical time in your life - you finished college (I'm assuming with few debts because of the tuition in Montreal) and are truly unfettered. Are you going to the School for Visual Arts? It has a wonderful reputation. I went to Barnard for my undergraduate degree, Princeton for my MA & PhD, and post-graduate study at CUNY Grad Center. My husband went to Sarah Lawrence for his undergraduate and did his MA, MPhil, & PhD at CUNY Grad Center. Of all of these schools my husband loved Sarah Lawrence and I loved Princeton - both outside of the city, go figure. My husband came to NYC in 1979 and I came in 1982. We were single students with few responsibilities and really enjoyed ourselves. NYC is harder to navigate with kids - it's not that it can't be done, but it would be harder for us.

We have spent the last 5 years planning a move out of the US. It is complicated with jobs and kids and we wanted to think carefully about it. We are working with a relocation agency in Montreal (Cap'Idéal Formation - Accueil) and the people there are very nice and supportive. I checked out a few agencies before I went with this one. We are still trying to figure out which immigration plan is best for us. I can tell you more in about a month. So far, we have been filling out lots of forms and questionnaires and discussing lifestyle choices.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2012, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleusakura View Post
Hi all,

We are a family of four - my husband, me, & our 14 y.o. twin boys who will be relocating to Montreal at the end of Sept/beginning of Oct. My husband knows French quite well and our sons have been studying it for 2 years. My French is weak (I studied Japanese) and welcome the opportunity to improve my language skills. We all want to become fluent in French and would like to live in a French-speaking neighborhood. My husband and I are cognitive psychologists and have worked with learning disabled children and adults to help them succeed in academics or vocations. For us, education is a core value and believe that everyone is capable of learning. Our biggest concern is what school would be a good fit for our boys. They have been attending a public school in the suburbs of NYC and will be entering 8th grade in the fall. I have read the Fraser reports, and criticisms of the Fraser reports, and articles about the Accueil program on the government and Montrealities websites. Unfortunately statistics don't tell the whole story about a school and I have only found negative reports about the Acceuil program. Essentially we are progressive people who want our kids to be in a culturally diverse French-speaking school that encourages creativity and is strong in the math and sciences. Does such a school exist?
In Canada, generally school funding is per pupil so there is not such an issue with a particular school district being underfunded compared to another. That said, some schools offer a better learning environment than others and the rule of thumb is usually the neighbourhood a school is in. A school in a nice neighbourhood will generally be better, and a school in a poorer area will have more problems. Sounds elitist but population make-up and whether most parents value education or not plays a big role in classroom atmosphere and how well teachers can do their jobs.

Another phenomenon in Montreal is that a lot of kids (especially in high school) go to private school.

On the language front, I was thinking of your sons and they are not just starting out in school. If they were 6 I'd say they'd be up to speed in no time but in high school everyone pretty much has their French down pat, even those for whom it is not their native language.

I'd say their challenge would be more on the level of fluency (compared to the others) than with anything related to the differences between Quebec and European French. In a lot of parts of Montreal there are many immigrants from around the world including Europe, Africa, Middle East, many of whom speak rudimentary international French and depending on which circles you frequent the local Quebec slang variant is not as totally dominant as one might think. Or at least, the international variety has made some inroads as well alongside it.

Regarding your jobs, I presume you have done your homework as there are likely requirements for registering as professionals that will likely include proficiency in French in order to practise.

I will write again if I think of anything else.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2012, 10:27 AM
 
61 posts, read 117,333 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleusakura View Post
You are in a truly magical time in your life - you finished college (I'm assuming with few debts because of the tuition in Montreal) and are truly unfettered. Are you going to the School for Visual Arts? It has a wonderful reputation. I went to Barnard for my undergraduate degree, Princeton for my MA & PhD, and post-graduate study at CUNY Grad Center. My husband went to Sarah Lawrence for his undergraduate and did his MA, MPhil, & PhD at CUNY Grad Center. Of all of these schools my husband loved Sarah Lawrence and I loved Princeton - both outside of the city, go figure. My husband came to NYC in 1979 and I came in 1982. We were single students with few responsibilities and really enjoyed ourselves. NYC is harder to navigate with kids - it's not that it can't be done, but it would be harder for us.

We have spent the last 5 years planning a move out of the US. It is complicated with jobs and kids and we wanted to think carefully about it. We are working with a relocation agency in Montreal (Cap'Idéal Formation - Accueil) and the people there are very nice and supportive. I checked out a few agencies before I went with this one. We are still trying to figure out which immigration plan is best for us. I can tell you more in about a month. So far, we have been filling out lots of forms and questionnaires and discussing lifestyle choices.
Well, I studied in Montreal as an international students, so I was paying "international" rates for tuition. I'm in about 14k debt, which isn't that bad for an undergraduate degree. I'm going into the school for Public Engagement, in the creative writing MFA. That is wonderful to hear that you and your husband have such a great academic background, I hope the two of you aren't in too much debt. Speaking of academics, I guess that is sort of another reason I am leaving Montreal (for now). While it is heavily populated by students, I noticed that once I graduated, I was coming across VERY FEW people my age that wanted to continue into Masters degrees. And the ones that did continue all left for other cities... I have a feeling that Montreal has a strong undergraduate population, but it doesn't have that highly academic grad student crowd that you'll find in Toronto, Chicago and NYC. It's also known for having "less jobs" than those cities, in terms of professional fields, so perhaps the two things correlate - maybe people who stay here don't feel like a Masters would benefit them career-wise at the moment, that sort of thing.

Yes, keep us updated about the immigration plan. Is working with the agency you mentioned the same as working with an immigration lawyer? If you tell them you want to buy a house here, and really relocate here, they will probably have you seek Permanent Residency. Temporary workers visas are another way to go - you could seek those and then seek PR when you get here. I'd be really interested to know what the process is like for you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:54 AM
 
25 posts, read 70,272 times
Reputation: 15
Unhappy Thanks for your feedback!

I follow your posts Acajack and I was hoping you would respond to mine! Thanks! I recognize the Herculean task we have ahead of us, but we have decided as a family that we will promote French in our household so that everyone will be immersed in the language and culture. I read this post on the BBC website and I was surprised by the idea that "Quebecois values are closer to British than to French":

BBC - Languages - French - French Connection - Québec

Quebec and France - close cousins or old acquaintances? Writer and critic Jean-Pierre Desulniers

Le rapport avec la France est extrêmement complexe. Sur plusieurs points, on a de la difficulté à se comprendre et les Québecois, d'une certaine manière, sur le plan des valeurs de la vie courante sont plus proches des Britanniques que des Français.

Translation
The relationship with France is very complex. In many areas, we have difficulty understanding each another. Quebecois values are closer to British than to French.

Can you recommend any books, movies, and music that reflect the Quebec mindset and culture?

Hi nickcommie - Where are your roots in the US? Are you from the Metro NYC area? When we were students we lived on very little money and it was VERY difficult. We were lucky because tuition at CUNY was very low ($500/yr.) and my husband received a research fellowship. When I went to grad school, my tuition was free and I received a research stipend. However, we pay very high taxes - city (when we lived and worked there), county, state, and federal taxes. My only advice would be to network.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada > Montreal

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top