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Old 07-05-2013, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,876 posts, read 38,026,310 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And that doesn't have the slightest thing to do with any of this nor should it.

I cannot for the life of me see the relevance of constantly reminding anyone discussing this that because they are not Quebecers their postion viv-a-vis a perceived discriminatory language bill has no bearing or basis.

Deriding people for that reason or for merely being elderly seems immature and beneath you. You provide reasoned discourse 6 times out of ten but then you perpetrate or defend this stuff and it makes one scratch their heads in wonder.

What is the salient point of discussion with this thread?

Quebec signage as being applied by bill 101 through the language police or relevant agency whatever it's called.

A whole myriad of issues grows like mushrooms out of that in attempts to provide rationale for that law with the latest being the native reservations plight thrown out like some 23rd hour, case breaking, piece of DNA evidence.

No one has provided any "foaming at the mouth" ammunition lest it be the one who suggest we'd all be better off if "cane bangers" would just keep their traps shut regardless if they are Canadian and perceive an injustice taking place. Do I really need to acquire any more legitimacy with you or anyone else other than being a citizen?
I think what me and many others find odd or even suspicious is how much relative "noise" the various alleged "mistreatments" in Canada seem to get. Especially when considers the gravity of the situations at play.

Aside from the temporary blip that came from the Idle No More protests, the aboriginal issue (broadly defined) generates far less noise from year to year on a national level than the issues with Quebec anglos.

I would venture to say that roughly two thirds of the public discourse in Canada (non-political) on the issue of "minority treatment" focuses on Anglo-Quebecers. Probably a quarter deals with aboriginals. The rest would be visible minorities of various origins (e.g. violent death rates for young black men in Toronto). Francophones outside Quebec aren't even on the radar in English Canada, and even in Quebec they only register a small blip.

This over-representation of the Quebec language issue and how it relates to the province's anglo community might actually be one of the reasons that there is some fatigue about their alleged plight in the rest of Canada. Perhaps many people are just sick of hearing about it, and while they may not agree with what Quebec does, they also don't see it as a big deal relative to other problems other people face. And of course there is always the "why don't you move" argument...

But the fact that "English in Quebec" does get so much attention I think probably speaks to a quasi-"chosen people" status for anglos, a group "that thou shall not touch", or at least not question their dominance and right to never be inconvenienced in living their lives exactly as they see fit (part of which includes in their language across the board).
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:00 AM
 
35,309 posts, read 52,299,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
But the fact that "English in Quebec" does get so much attention I think probably speaks to a quasi-"chosen people" status for anglos, a group "that thou shall not touch", or at least not question their dominance and right to never be inconvenienced in living their lives exactly as they see fit (part of which includes in their language across the board).
In reality all this linguistic repression that Quebec lays on its minorities isnt the news fodder you think it is Sure the outrageous Pastagate will get major attention pointing to the extent of legislative frivolity in Quebec but little else is considered newsworthy for the ROC as they've come to accept and become quite complacent about language laws in Quebec,
i like to post links of these insane stories of the extent to which Quebecs linguistic lunacy will go,any one not liking that topic of links just dont open a link i post..
As for Anglo Quebeckers being the chosen people? From my perspective they seem to be Canadas forgotten culture, and a group thou shalt not touch? seems bill101 hasnt taken that into consideration. Dominance? surely you jest, dominance over who? If we were as dominant as you think we are there would be no bill101, and a right to never be inconvenienced? you got that whole highlighted part of your post backwards as from my perspective that highlighted segment describes the Francophone of Quebec perfectly and IMO is the basis for much inaccurate and misguided thinking from todays Quebec government and many of its people and as a result much un needed linguistic intolerance rules the day.
Quebec youd be doing yourself and future generations a big favor by breaking out of your self imposed linguistic cage and joining the rest of the world.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:28 AM
 
869 posts, read 1,124,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think what me and many others find odd or even suspicious is how much relative "noise" the various alleged "mistreatments" in Canada seem to get. Especially when considers the gravity of the situations at play.
Like you pay as much attention to sad news from Niger, BanglaDesh or Armenia as you do those from France or the USA even if comparatively much more benign.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Aside from the temporary blip that came from the Idle No More protests, the aboriginal issue (broadly defined) generates far less noise from year to year on a national level than the issues with Quebec anglos.

I would venture to say that roughly two thirds of the public discourse in Canada (non-political) on the issue of "minority treatment" focuses on Anglo-Quebecers. Probably a quarter deals with aboriginals. The rest would be visible minorities of various origins (e.g. violent death rates for young black men in Toronto). Francophones outside Quebec aren't even on the radar in English Canada, and even in Quebec they only register a small blip.

This over-representation of the Quebec language issue and how it relates to the province's anglo community might actually be one of the reasons that there is some fatigue about their alleged plight in the rest of Canada. Perhaps many people are just sick of hearing about it, and while they may not agree with what Quebec does, they also don't see it as a big deal relative to other problems other people face. And of course there is always the "why don't you move" argument...).
The Quebec issue is altogether different, it is of the self-inflicted kind as it goes against Quebec's socio/economical interest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
But the fact that "English in Quebec" does get so much attention I think probably speaks to a quasi-"chosen people" status for anglos, a group "that thou shall not touch", or at least not question their dominance and right to never be inconvenienced in living their lives exactly as they see fit (part of which includes in their language across the board).
not ''chosen people'' , more like ''chosen language'' for at least the last century, bet you cant argue that one
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:33 AM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,487,222 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think what me and many others find odd or even suspicious is how much relative "noise" the various alleged "mistreatments" in Canada seem to get. Especially when considers the gravity of the situations at play.

Aside from the temporary blip that came from the Idle No More protests, the aboriginal issue (broadly defined) generates far less noise from year to year on a national level than the issues with Quebec anglos.

I would venture to say that roughly two thirds of the public discourse in Canada (non-political) on the issue of "minority treatment" focuses on Anglo-Quebecers. Probably a quarter deals with aboriginals. The rest would be visible minorities of various origins (e.g. violent death rates for young black men in Toronto). Francophones outside Quebec aren't even on the radar in English Canada, and even in Quebec they only register a small blip.

This over-representation of the Quebec language issue and how it relates to the province's anglo community might actually be one of the reasons that there is some fatigue about their alleged plight in the rest of Canada. Perhaps many people are just sick of hearing about it, and while they may not agree with what Quebec does, they also don't see it as a big deal relative to other problems other people face. And of course there is always the "why don't you move" argument...

But the fact that "English in Quebec" does get so much attention I think probably speaks to a quasi-"chosen people" status for anglos, a group "that thou shall not touch", or at least not question their dominance and right to never be inconvenienced in living their lives exactly as they see fit (part of which includes in their language across the board).
Well; let's deal with your surmisals as presented.

The native issue gets assigned a value (perhaps unfairly or incorrectly) based on the perception it's not being perpetrated upon them by the Fed/Prov (Canadians at large) governing body, but rather in large part, because their OWN people are responsible for the disbursement of funds and other resources allocated to them by the taxpayers of Canada.

We pour money into those communities and watch while they aportion it out to a small cabal of leaders who live in luxury compared to the rest of the band they profess and DEMAND the right to represent. We cave to their demand for self governance then watch dismayed while they squander the money on new Cadillac Escalades on reserves with 5 miles of roadways or six figure salaries for twenty leaders representing 5,000 residents. Zamboni governance, if you will. Handouts without accountability!

"They" demand a "keep your hands off our kids" due to past injustices but then allow a significant number of them to sink into a miasma of despair with glue/gasoline sniffing and suicide rampant THEN scream at US for this terrible happenstance. Parental responsibility and community integrity is not issued to them via a government handout. That battle cry of "cultural maintenance" without any real attempts being made to assign it a relevant value to the detriment of instilling within them a sense of pride of accomplishment of attaining a skillset that will see them into the 22nd century of a competing world.

Wringing our hands has shown to be futile.

Stepping in and attempting to instill responsibility has shown to be futile.

Holding them accountable has shown to be futile.

Watching from the sidelines is the role they demanded we take so we are relegated to do so while they ghettoize themselves beyond any semblance of a once proud people. Giving them more is always the cry from sympathizers. We will undoubtedly ultimately give them enough to virtually guarantee their complete extinction.

Quebec English are on the other hand, being agressively pummeled by an opposing force that is duely elected and a recognized political party sitting in our Houses of Parliament that has adopted a discriminatory number of policies directed at a manufactured villain who are conveniently a part of their electorate they're supposed to be representing.

Did the English ever demand that signage be posted only in english through enacted legislation? Why then are they perceived as villains perpetrating some terrible injustice towards the French speaking Quebecers only. Anything that transpired within that Province in the last hundred years happened though the ebb and flow of normal social intercourse.

Elected parties have in large part become popular through their avowed and openly stated purpose to bring the English to their knees. What kind of platform is that for a modern democratic country to even allow?

I opine these differences are what accounts for the depth and breadth of the "outside" focus on the Quebec Bill 101 situation versus the "aboriginal plight".

Now I acknowledge you started your post with stating "you and others are suspicious" with the word "especially" used as a descriptor and I put it to you thusly:

Why would you be "suspicious" of people seeing what they perceive to be an injustice perpetrated against a minority by a recognized political party elected to perform that very function within ONE Province?

Are not our "perceptions" worthy of equal traction as your "suspicions"?

Your suggestion that we are merely rushing to defend a "quasi chosen" few with the prejudicial addendum of "not question their dominance" or "maintaining their right to live their life without inconveniencing them" is just one more obfuscation, when THROUGHOUT this and many other threads discussing this topic the single outstanding theme has always been: "equality of language rights".

This thread is perhaps more indicative of the relevance of the discussion due to the stupid and illogical reasoning of maintenance of a cultural equality through the imposition of signage rules that state outight; "we will maintain our equality of culture and language by forcing inequality of lettering size and postioning of that lettering within the sign".

Does correcting a perceived injustice by creating another perceived injustice seem a valid or workable concept to you?

Surely you can put your suspicions into perspective and see the inconsistancy with that type of reasoning leading to even more outrage over time.

Last edited by BruSan; 07-05-2013 at 09:46 AM..
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,876 posts, read 38,026,310 times
Reputation: 11645
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Well; let's deal with your surmisals as presented.

The native issue gets assigned a value (perhaps unfairly or incorrectly) based on the perception it's not being perpetrated upon them by the Fed/Prov (Canadians at large) governing body, but rather in large part, because their OWN people are responsible for the disbursement of funds and other resources allocated to them by the taxpayers of Canada.

We pour money into those communities and watch while they aportion it out to a small cabal of leaders who live in luxury compared to the rest of the band they profess and DEMAND the right to represent. We cave to their demand for self governance then watch dismayed while they squander the money on new Cadillac Escalades on reserves with 5 miles of roadways or six figure salaries for twenty leaders representing 5,000 residents. Zamboni governance, if you will. Handouts without accountability!

"They" demand a "keep your hands off our kids" due to past injustices but then allow a significant number of them to sink into a miasma of despair with glue/gasoline sniffing and suicide rampant THEN scream at US for this terrible happenstance. Parental responsibility and community integrity is not issued to them via a government handout. That battle cry of "cultural maintenance" without any real attempts being made to assign it a relevant value to the detriment of instilling within them a sense of pride of accomplishment of attaining a skillset that will see them into the 22nd century of a competing world.

Wringing our hands has shown to be futile.

Stepping in and attempting to instill responsibility has shown to be futile.

Holding them accountable has shown to be futile.

Watching from the sidelines is the role they demanded we take so we are relegated to do so while they ghettoize themselves beyond any semblance of a once proud people. Giving them more is always the cry from sympathizers. We will undoubtedly ultimately give them enough to virtually guarantee their complete extinction.

Quebec English are on the other hand, being agressively pummeled by an opposing force that is duely elected and a recognized political party sitting in our Houses of Parliament that has adopted a discriminatory number of policies directed at a manufactured villain who are conveniently a part of their electorate they're supposed to be representing.

Did the English ever demand that signage be posted only in english through enacted legislation? Why then are they perceive as vilains perpetrating some terrible injustice towards the French speaking Quebecers only. Anything that transpired within that Province in the last hundred years happened though the ebb and flow of normal social intercourse.

Elected parties have in large part become popular through their avowed and openly stated purpose to bring the English to their knees. What kind of platform is that for a modern democratic country to even allow?

I opine these differences are what accounts for the depth and breadth of the "outside" focus on the Quebec Bill 101 situation versus the "aboriginal plight".

Now I acknowledge you started your post with stating "you and others are suspicious" with the word "especially" used as a descriptor and I put it to you thusly:

Why would you be "suspicious" of people seeing what they perceive to be an injustice perpetrated against a minority by a recognized political party elected to perform that very function within ONE Province?

Are not our "perceptions" worthy of equal traction as your "suspicions"?

Your suggestion that we are merely rushing to defend a "quasi chosen" few with the prejudicial addendum of "not question their dominance" or "maintaining their right to live their life without inconveniencing them" is just one more obfuscation, when THROUGHOUT this and many other threads discussing this topic the single outstanding theme has always been: "equality of language rights".

This thread is perhaps more indicative of the relevance of the discussion due to the stupid and illogical reasoning of maintenance of a clutural equality through the imposition of signage rules that state outight; "we will maintain our equality of culture and language by forcing inequality of lettering size and postioning of that lettering within the sign".

Does correcting a perceived injustice by creating another perceived injustice seem a valid or workable concept to you?

Surely you can put your suspicions into perspective and see the inconsistancy with that type of reasoning leading to even more outrage over time.
Thank you for sharing this insight into your general views on minorities who have "history".

The idea that groups should simply "forget about the past and pull themselves up by the bootstraps" is certainly a valid one - it has to be since it is shared by so many people (whose ancestors generally happened to be on the right side of history) in the US and Canada...
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:09 AM
 
869 posts, read 1,124,854 times
Reputation: 2047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Thank you for sharing this insight into your general views on minorities who have "history".

The idea that groups should simply "forget about the past and pull themselves up by the bootstraps" is certainly a valid one - it has to be since it is shared by so many people (whose ancestors generally happened to be on the right side of history) in the US and Canada...
snap out of it already , its like you were just freed from toiling the cotton fields

that old ''slavery bugaboo'' need not apply here
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:34 AM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,487,222 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Thank you for sharing this insight into your general views on minorities who have "history".

The idea that groups should simply "forget about the past and pull themselves up by the bootstraps" is certainly a valid one - it has to be since it is shared by so many people (whose ancestors generally happened to be on the right side of history) in the US and Canada...

Why, thank you for your very patronizing response. I'm coming to expect no less.

Where was it said in my post they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps? I believe I stated that they should take responsibility for their own future.

Brother you are becoming so predictable in reading words and attributing unintended meaning to them.

Who was it again accusing me of mind reading some time ago?

Treaty obligations observed would function well IF some effective oversight were provided by a commission of elders that are endowed with ethical underpinnings rather than the "I'm all right Jack" pervasive theology of a majority of band leaders.

Once again the word "culture" is used as a cudgel to beat us (assumed to be) Anglo Saxons about the head with the sole purpose of the fleeting satisfaction of leaving visible dents with no real improvement being seen by self governance. Is it a cultural heritage that demands a significant portion of these people see no benefit to becoming engineers, doctors teachers or lawyers but rather alcoholics, drug addicts or prostitutes?

If the young themselves see the focus on cultural heritage leading to nothing but abject penury and give up; then something is drastically wrong with the way that cultural heritage is being passed on.

We are forced by treaties, in essence, to be providers. What they do, however, with what we provide should be held up to close scrutiny until such time as pride of accomplishment in self governance overtakes the natural tendancy to just sit back and cash the cheques and build a hockey rink to garner votes instead of a new sewage treatment plant or schools with up to date things like media and science labs.

Our political process is rife with self interest why would we expect theirs to be any different?

Now aside from your tendancy to interpret all that I say with complete "snidely whiplash" disdain and rush to usage of that assigning me a niche of disgruntled old white anglo saxon male yearning for bygone days of pretige and power; I will attempt just one more time to entreat you to get down off that pedestal of superiority you've erected there and at least give my "opinions" the same value you expect from others for yours.
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:53 AM
 
35,309 posts, read 52,299,308 times
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Kinda quiet around here..
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:08 AM
 
869 posts, read 1,124,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Kinda quiet around here..
Of course you meant >>>



SILENCIEUX

quiet
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:00 AM
 
35,309 posts, read 52,299,308 times
Reputation: 30999
Maybe as there are no English only signs around here maybe i should start a new hobby and go around the neighborhood tacking English only signs up everywhere,it would drive the separatists nuts

They seek him here,they seek him there,they seek that dastardly Anglo everywhere
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