French is drastically deteriorating in Montréal, and its suburbs are anglicizing: Soon an Anglo-city? (neighbourhoods, school)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by nuala

Anecdotally, in my everyday life, I constantly hear French around me, some employees of private and government organizations cannot speak English, so I am forced to speak French. Or, seeing difficulty of a French person communicating in English, I switch and we reverse the roles (in terms of, instead of me pitying him, now he is pitying me, all in the course of the same conversation....) I see the French school system as better suited for our family, striving for the kids to be bilingual... Even in IT companies that hire people from various countries, the French is dominant. Don't know what is such a fuss in the OP.

This reflects when I see as well. Though there is certainly a two-steps-forward-one-step-back element to it.


I am old enough to remember Montreal as far back as the 70s. Large parts of the city and island were basically like Ontario. And pretty much the only people who were speaking French were those of French Canadian origin. (In fact, a lot of French Canadians were using English too.)


Montreal today is more French than it's ever been in my lifetime. This is not to say that the battle has been won.


But French is very present in all areas of the island, even if it's not crushingly dominant everywhere.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phaneuf

OP -- you may find solace in the latest inter-quinquennial census results for metro Montreal (all 4,000,000+ people in it) (I am encouraged by them). For the first time in years, the relative decline of French-mother-tongue (FMT) and French-home-language (FHL) users (alone or in addition to other languages) has been stopped AND reversed. In 2011, 65.8% of all grand Montréal residents were FMT speakers. In 2016, this figure rose modestly to 65.9%. A small increase indeed, but the important thing is that it is an increase, not a further decline! The increase is more marked for the FHL indicator – in 2011, 70.4% of all grand-Montréalais were FHL speakers. This data point rose by .8% to 71.2% in 2016. As they say in good English, Wéïtougô-ou!!!


For the Anglophone side, English-mother-tongue users (alone or in addition to other languages) declined by .4% from 13.6% to 13.2% and English-home-language users (alone or in addition to other languages) declined by .1% from 19.1% to 19.0% during the same period.


Acajack may just be right about the lag inthe Bill 101-effect among immigrants between earlier waves and later, post-1976 waves.

There are also worriers on the other side out there who point to stuff like this to say the anglo community is dying out.

[nuala]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are also worriers on the other side out there who point to stuff like this to say the anglo community is dying out.

Yes. Just wait for jambo101 to see this thread.

[BIMBAM]

The fearmongering about Vaudreuil, one small suburb, as being proof of the whole metro anglicizing, is I think rather disingenuous. As are the use of statistics about the number of native French speakers declining in places like Laval. This is due to recent immigration, not hordes of Albertans or whatever moving to Montreal's suburbs, and recent immigrants are likely to be fairly integrated with French Quebec or at least quite trilingual. Gone are the days of most immigrants assimilating to English. I know the Anglophones who moved to Vaudreuil. They're largely Anglo-Quebecker Millennials from the West Island who got priced out of the suburbs they grew up in when looking for starter homes so they moved to the other side of the bridge as lots of new housing got built over there. These people would live in metro Montreal regardless, and frankly there's nothing wrong with that, it's their home, it's where their families live, and all of their friends and it's the only place they know. They aren't like our parents' generation, they are comfortable and well adapted to life in modern Quebec, but remain fiercely proud of their language and culture and reject the hurtful rhetoric of being some kind of scourge. If you want them to integrate further, try not characterizing ordinary people living their lives that way, it is not a constructive way to engage and offending people makes them want to do the opposite whatever you want them to do.

[Mouldy Old Schmo]

At one time, anglophones were a large part of Quebec City’s population. Where did they go?

[Mouldy Old Schmo]

Are there some schools in Montreal where the majority of students’ mother tongue is neither French nor English?

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by nuala

Yes. Just wait for jambo101 to see this thread.

Not much to say about the ops manifesto other than as long as the French culture is artificially propped up by bill101 and language police you dont have to worry about Montreal or Quebec going all Anglo.
For English press 9.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

At one time, anglophones were a large part of Quebec City’s population. Where did they go?

In the first half of the 1800s Quebec City was a kind of staging area or way station for the British's control and settlement of its colony of Canada.


Some of those British origin people stuck around, but most did not.


Among those who stuck around:


https://www.simons.ca/fr

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

Are there some schools in Montreal where the majority of students’ mother tongue is neither French nor English?

Lots of them. Though no public schools teach in those other languages of course.


French schools are generally more diverse than English schools these days though.

[QuebecOpec]

Originally Posted by phaneuf

For the first time in years, the relative decline of French-mother-tongue (FMT) and French-home-language (FHL) users (alone or in addition to other languages) has been stopped AND reversed. In 2011, 65.8% of all grand Montr̩al residents were FMT speakers. In 2016, this figure rose modestly to 65.9%. A small increase indeed, but the important thing is that it is an increase, not a further decline! The increase is more marked for the FHL indicator Рin 2011, 70.4% of all grand-Montr̩alais were FHL speakers. This data point rose by .8% to 71.2% in 2016.

Thank you for these information.
I made my analysis using data that refers only to native language as a single response, as well as everyday language (most language spoken at home) as a single response. I did not take into account multiple responses with multiples native languages and multiple everyday languages.

In Québec, the whole province, the total share of French as both as a native language in single responses and also multiple responses, decreased between 2011 and 2016, from 78,1% to 77,1% (French as only native language) and from 79,8% to 79,0% (French as a native language, including multiple answers alongside with French). That's why I was tempted to believe that there's decline in Montréal in both categories, and I did not bother to analyse data for multiple responses.

It is very good that you point this out and remind me of it. Indeed, a few percent of metropolitan Montréal's population has multiple native languages, like French and Spanish or English and Italian; or English, French and Swedish.

I checked the data. You are right. French, as a native language only + combined with multiple answers, with one of them being French, really increased from 65,9% to 66,0% in the entire metro area between 2011 and 2016, for the first time in this century. French as an everyday language, only + combined with other languages, also increased from 70,39% to 71,2%.

Everything I wrote in my first post, is still true and valid for "French as a single native language" and "French as a single everyday language". French as a single language is decreasing in nearly all suburbs/arrondissements, it is balanced by a growing number of people who speak it among other languages, who fall into another statistical category.

I'm sorry. I too hastily presumed that Québec's language decline must have taken place in metro-Montréal because that's where it has taken place in the past decades.

English as an everyday language, as a single response combined with multiple responses, though, increased on Montréal island from 27,54% to 27,9%. It increased also in Laval and the south-west. In the rest of the metro area and in overall, it decreased. I think it's still appropriate to speak of an anglicisation as île de Montréal & Laval are the core area of the metropolitan area, and interaction within the core area is higher than between the core area and more-distant areas.

What is most interesting is, however, is that, since French did decline as a native language in Québec (in both single and multiple responses), but since it did not decline in metro-Montréal in overall, that this consequently means that French is losing ground in the REST OF QUÉBEC. I think this a a sensation! In the past it was reversed: metro-Montréal always used to have greater decreases than the rest of Québec. Now, it is vice versa: The Rest of Québec is responsible for the decline of French. Since metro-Montréal gained 0,1% French everyday speakers, and is 50% of Québec's population, it means that the rest of Québec lost percentagewise 1,6% of French everyday speakers. I just wonder, where? Do you think this decrease is evenly distributed in the Rest of Québec? I could imagine that perhaps Gâtineau area is responsible for this decline.
I'm very surprised that the Rest of Québec is now losing French natives, while metro-Montréal does not anymore.

Thank you for this info. You have indeed given me some hope back and the new data has risen hope that French is not (yet) lost in Montréal and that it might have a brighter future than initially assumed.

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

At one time, anglophones were a large part of Quebec City’s population. Where did they go?

They went to Vermont, Maine, the rest of New England, New York state, Ontario and other places in North America.

It should be noted that Québec City was founded by the French in 1608, at its beginning it was 100% francophone. (Yes, there were indigenous people but they lived outside of the borders of present-day Québec City)
Even though the share of anglophones has become low, their share today is still higher than in 1620 and the share of francophones is lower than four hundred centuries ago

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

Are there some schools in Montreal where the majority of students’ mother tongue is neither French nor English?

Of course there are!
Since 2011 the number of allophones (this word describes people whose native language is neither French nor English) has surpassed the number of native francophones.
39,8% of school pupils are native French, 41% are allophone and 19,1% is native English on Montréal island. There is some kind of segregation, that means there will be some schools where there is a Francophone majority, mostly in Mercier–Hochelaga, Montréal-Nord and Rosemont. In the middle parts of the island, there are numerous schools where French is not a native language for more than 70% of all pupils. English is more often dominating as a native language in Englisch schools.


Here are all language statistics about school:
https://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ressourc...331_etude1.pdf