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Opec your hate for Anglos is starting to border on psychosis. and as such further conversation is pointless.
Oh jambo... I'm not hating Anglos. I only want that English services are not available to newcomers from outside Canada, it is actually normal to only receive services in 1 language in most countries of the world. Services in English are only intended to be a temporary solution and temporary arrangement to give migrants time to adjust to a new environment, but anglophones and some allophones all around the world shamelessy exploit this offers and never integrate and only live in Anglo-luxury bubbles. Making it available in E is not helping integration into franco-society and will cause much discussion in the upcoming election.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Peasant
Not to completely change the topic but since I originated this thread and didn't intend it to be only about the language conflict in Montreal, I would like to bring up a few more observations I had about the parts of Greater Montreal I had visited.
- I especially admire how Quartier Chinois conserves space by putting restaurants on the top floors and retail on the bottom. In that way, both space and revenue are maximized. Smart thinking isn't it? I kind of wish our Chinatown did the same thing.
- Why doesn't Societe Transport de Laval, Societe Transport de Montreal, and Reseau de Transport de Longueuil merge their services? Wouldn't it make much more sense for just one whole transit system in the metro area with direct transfers?
- I also visited St. Joseph's Oratory for the third time and each time I go back there I keep getting the feeling the place is getting more and more touristy. Is that really their mission though?
Finally will someone please tell me why Quebec's shopping centres close so early on Saturdays? I think I asked the question on another thread but in Greater Montreal it really makes no sense.
1. Montréal has a very dense core, every m² matters and is set into action. I think in Boston with its large suburban sprawl (that is typical for US cities), they have more than enough space elsewere and thus don't need to become so dense.
2. If they merged, there would be only one central office for all, wouldn't it? Laval and Longueuil do not want to give up their central offices. Also if services were merged, some employees would become unemployed, no one wants that.
There is a superordinate organisation for those three: Autorité régionale de transport métropolitain, ARTM, which coordinates transport in Grand Montréal.
I think having three more local transport organizations has also positive advantages, it serves better Laval and Longueuil.
Laval and Longueuil know better what their residents want than a centrla office in Montréal, right? Like Bern knows better than Brussels what Switzerland wants. I don't really think that merging these three would result in better results. The current solution is good with ARTM (although traffic can be diastrous...but I don't know how a merger would solve that)
3. Lol, no it isn't. I guess being beautiful and historic attracts more and more tourists in a city that is elsewhere marked by dull, simple modern high-rise buldings.
4. To get a break from capitalism and say no to consumerism? Shop assistants do also want to enjoy their weekend. Actually, I'm happy that they close so early.
In Grand Montréal, people working in shops are also human beings like in rural land area villages who appreciate having a free Saturday evening...
if people are unhappy with that, they can move to Toronto, but please don't change Québec's opening hours. They are human and not 24/7 capitalist.
Services in English are only intended to be a temporary solution and temporary arrangement to give migrants time to adjust to a new environment, but anglophones and some allophones all around the world shamelessy exploit this offers and never integrate and only live in Anglo-luxury bubbles.
Agreed. I hate the fact for instance many British expats during the entire 156 year history of Hong Kong's colonial rule pretty much kept to themselves and learned not one word of Cantonese. It is still happening today in parts of Hong Kong such as Central and Tsim Sha Tsui. The same goes with Americans, Arabs, some South Asians, and some of the Northern Chinese, especially those of upperclass standing. Cantonese really is the Putonghua (common language) of Hong Kong but it is too much ignored just as French is in Montreal. Practically all of the best schools including almost all of the International Schools and English Foundation Schools bypass and ignore Cantonese and zero in on English, Mandarin, and other languages. Heck, in those circles even French is considered more worthy than Cantonese. It is really not fair to the local people and so I feel for you in Montreal. Anyone who wishes to stay longer than a year in Montreal or anywhere in Quebec ought to make strides in learning French until they can converse in it. Signs ought to be in French for the most part just like signs and pamphlets in Hong Kong ought to be in traditional characters only, not simplified.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec
1. Montréal has a very dense core, every m² matters and is set into action. I think in Boston with its large suburban sprawl (that is typical for US cities), they have more than enough space elsewere and thus don't need to become so dense.
Boston is not on an island but unfortunately due to overdevelopment and arcane zoning laws, its suburbs are running out of space. Downtown Boston itself is very tight and limited in space. It is only a peninsula after all. You might even find it tighter than Montreal's centre-ville.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec
2. If they merged, there would be only one central office for all, wouldn't it? Laval and Longueuil do not want to give up their central offices. Also if services were merged, some employees would become unemployed, no one wants that.
There is a superordinate organisation for those three: Autorité régionale de transport métropolitain, ARTM, which coordinates transport in Grand Montréal.
Not necessarily. One agency can have different subdivisions and all except maybe one or two executives could keep their jobs. I just wish there were direct fare transfers between the three systems (i.e. you can use an STM monthly pass or transfer ticket on an STL omnibus).
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec
4. To get a break from capitalism and say no to consumerism? Shop assistants do also want to enjoy their weekend. Actually, I'm happy that they close so early.
In Grand Montréal, people working in shops are also human beings like in rural land area villages who appreciate having a free Saturday evening...
if people are unhappy with that, they can move to Toronto, but please don't change Québec's opening hours. They are human and not 24/7 capitalist.
Yes I am aware of how much Quebecois value their leisure and comfort. In a fast paced and growing metro area like Greater Montreal however, such luxuries are going to be less and less affordable in the future. I'd prefer Carrefour Laval and other shopping centres to stagger their hours and maybe open later so that they can close later. From what I saw at Carrefour Laval, I think there are many new people to Montreal, new hardworking immigrants who will not mind working late hours and taking the late shifts if allowed. Remember what I said in my original post that Carrefour Laval was packed with shoppers all the way to the last minute. I arrived at the centre only after 1600 hours and would have thought it would be very quiet with few people at that late hour. I was wrong. The demand for later shopping hours is definitely there.
Agreed. I hate the fact for instance many British expats during the entire 156 year history of Hong Kong's colonial rule pretty much kept to themselves and learned not one word of Cantonese. It is still happening today in parts of Hong Kong such as Central and Tsim Sha Tsui. The same goes with Americans, Arabs, some South Asians, and some of the Northern Chinese, especially those of upperclass standing. Cantonese really is the Putonghua (common language) of Hong Kong but it is too much ignored just as French is in Montreal. Practically all of the best schools including almost all of the International Schools and English Foundation Schools bypass and ignore Cantonese and zero in on English, Mandarin, and other languages. Heck, in those circles even French is considered more worthy than Cantonese. It is really not fair to the local people and so I feel for you in Montreal. Anyone who wishes to stay longer than a year in Montreal or anywhere in Quebec ought to make strides in learning French until they can converse in it. Signs ought to be in French for the most part just like signs and pamphlets in Hong Kong ought to be in traditional characters only, not simplified.
I'd prefer Carrefour Laval and other shopping centres to stagger their hours and maybe open later so that they can close later.
According to the English-speaking wikipedia, Cantonese is the native language of 87%, English of 4% and Mandarin of 1,3%; 95% have knowledge of Cantonese and half have knowledge of Mandarin and English each.
Interestingly, I also consulted the French-speaking wikipedia and it says that 90% are native Catonese, 3,2% native Mandarin and 1,4% native Mandarin and that Cantonese is spoken by 98%, while English and Mandarin are spoken by 83% and 88%, which makes Hong Kong possibly the world's largest most trilingual major city.
Although Catonese, Mandarin & English are spoken by a very large majority, only 6% have very good Mandarin and English skills, whereas 53,1% has very good Cantonese skills, which makes Cantonese the unchallegend number one language.
In my opinion, it is better that the language of instruction in HongKong is Cantonese - because that's THE language of the city, Hong Kong kids should receive education in their native language and services should be first and foremost in Cantonese. It seems like in future, Guangdong province will turn Mandarin, while Hong Kong will remain Cantonese. But if instruction is switched to Mandarin Hong Kong, Hong Kong will be mandarinized to some degree, too, and this will have a huge impact on Cantonese because now that Guangzhou and Shenzen are turning Mandarin, Hong Kong is the last major city that is Cantonese-majority.
The French wikipedia also states:
Les Occidentaux préfèrent cependant le mandarin car beaucoup plus parlé en Chine continentaleet beaucoup plus facile à apprendre. Western people prefer Mandarin [over Cantonese] because it is more often spoken in mainland China and easier to learn.
Western people should first realize, that in Hong Kong the local language is Cantonese and that Mandarin can be learnt as an addition later. I think that British expats are like "English is the language of communication with the outside world, and Mandarin the language of the main part of the large country" and that they avoid Cantonese.
So far however, it seems that Cantonese is doing very well in Hong Kong and that the amount of western migration and overseas community, and even the Mandarin community, in HongKong is relatively small and has little impact on the overall language situation. It seems that people who in the past migrated from mainland China to Hongkong, that they have adopted Cantonese as their main language, otherwise one couldn't explain the low figure for Mandarin.
Good idea I'm okay with the idea of shifting opening hours, from for example 10.00 - 17.00 to 13.00 - 20.00, as long as the total amount of opening hours remains the same. That would even be better. Why have 500 stores that open in the morning? Let some open some hours later and finish some hours later.
I think the switch in terms of attitude was flipped quite some time ago (maybe 20 years) but in terms of language ability things have not changed that significantly. Even if bilingualism is slowly rising.
It's probably just the randomness of who you bump into.
You can say that again, this wasn’t Montreal, Québec, or even Canada, but it illustrates that even if you mean well, you can still fall foul of an intransigent Anglo, or French native speaker.
My wife and I were in a restaurant, in La Flèche, Sarthe, in The Pays de la Loire, maybe 15-18 months back.
As I was about to ask for another bottle of wine, we heard raised voices coming from a few tables away, where four Brits appeared to be arguing with their waitress.
Being of French blood, although born and raised in Angleterre, I can more than get by in French, but as I get older, there are times when, “Je ne peux pas saisir le mot juste.”
I asked the Brits if I could help them, one of them said, “The waitress appears to be angry with our tip, and keeps giving it back to us, we think she thinks we’re being cheap, but we’ve left about 15%.”
I looked at their bill, saw it straight away, and confirmed it with the waitress, the law for some time in France has been that all restaurant prices and bills, must be “service compris”, or service included, no tip necessary, she’d been trying to give the tip back to them.
I explained this to the disgruntled Brits, and told them to look for service compris on menus in future.
I then began to explain the misunderstanding to the waitress, to make sure that she didn’t think all Anglos are dumb, when one of the Brits chimed in, with, “Hey, speak English, or are you telling her that we’re stupid?”
I said, “She doesn’t speak English you clown, that’s why I helped you.”
My wife said to me, “That will teach you keep your mouth shut.”
I received mail in Ahuntsic-Cartierville in about four-fifths of times in French only, and in one fifth of times in French together with a separate letter in English (which I have thrown into the garbage can where it belongs). My neighbor made a request to the arrondissement's administration and since then he got his stuff in English. A few times he didn't get a letter in English and then he complained and wanted me to translate it, initially I translated it for him, hoping he would realize that it is important to know French and encouraging it, but the second time I felt linguistically abused by him, as he still had no interest learn it, and I told him to learn French and stop exploiting English services. Luckily he moved and I got a good francophone neighbor.
Every city hall has a database with information about their inhabitants, they know your age, your gender, your country of birth, your citizen or migrant status, whether you have a car, etc., depending on the info they have, they send the letters. For example, they can choose in their database for whom a letter shall be adressed, like "women over 18 years with voting rights". I don't know how municipalities handle it in general, it seems it's varying.
I'm happy to hear that Fairview shopping center has no English signage but I feel deeply disturbed that West Island-francophones are harassed by English letters and have no option to receive unilingual mail. Each time they are confronted with English phrases, it exerts an anglicising effect on francophones, it's no surprise that West Island communities have the highest linguistic transfer rates towards English. Especially allophones who newly arrive in Dorval, etc. quickly internalize that Québec is a bilingual province once they open their mail, they see the English version and ask themselves: "Why should I learn French? Everything's available in English, including city hall services. I will integrate into the Anglo community." It is a severe violation of all francization efforts to send bilingual mail, it nullifies and destroys all motivation to learn French and only contributes to further anglisization.
If I was in charge of ruling Québec, I would restrict English services and mail to only:
- Canadian citizens who received primary education in English
- temporary workers
- workers of international organizations
Allophones and francophones should be banned from receiving English mail and doing so should be punishable with OQLF fines.
Also in case you didn't know, Dorval and some other West Island municipalities nowadays illegally violate Bill 101, the share of English native speakers has fallen below 50% in Dorval, etc. which means that the Québec government has by law to revoke the bilingual statute of them but they refuse. It's all written in Bill 101 but this law is so weak and close to meaningless because barely anyone ever executes it, even the Québec government ignores it.
https://www.ledevoir.com/politique/q...s-les-criteres Des 42 municipalités qui ne remplissent plus la condition requise par la Loi 101, 17 se retrouvent avec une population formée de 40 % à 50 % d’anglophones,... En revanche, quelques municipalités ont vu le nombre de leurs citoyens de langue anglaise croître pour dépasser les 40 %. C’est ce qui s’est passé à Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue et à Huntingdon. « Avec le temps, il y a un système un petit peu inéquitable qui s’est installé et un peu irrationnel », juge le sous-ministre. En théorie, de nouvelles municipalités pourraient obtenir un statut bilingue, a-t-il mentionné.
The Québec government tolerates and allows Québec's self-anglisication, which is catastrophic. PQ are not really heroes, they are also to be blamed, they introduced the bilingual status in the past, to help automatically assimilate allophones into the Anglo-community to get some imaginary Anglo votes...
For how long does Québec's government want to pretend that English is not an offical language in the province? For how long does Québec's government want to keep secret the % of people using the English formulars? For how long wants it to disregard Bill 101?
When will it publish the total number of workers who work in large multinational companies that are excempt from Bill 101?
Bill 101 is the world's most absurd language law with the most loopholes, super special rights for an overprivileged minority, that can live in Grand Montréal as English as in Los Angeles. It would be all okay if allophones had not the same rights, though they all do.
It even grants extra rights for hypothetical minorities, instead of integrating them into francophone society, theoretically Indians or Hispanic can come in mass migration into a small town, constitute more of 50% in this town and then by law they are entitled to services in their own language. I won't say that Bill 101 failed, it is the government who failed to correctly execute it and implement extra measures to ensure that French remains essential.
Acajack, do you receive mail from the city hall in a bilingual version or French only, how is it in Gatineau?
So you essentially want to be an authoritarian and punish/divide people on linguistics. Basically, you're granting open season for discrimination to anyone is non-French. Now yes people should integrate into society, but you shouldn't force them either. If someone decides to keep speaking English in Quebec, they have the right to do so. Remember, Quebec is still in Canada, and although they did not sign the constitution, they still have to abide by it. Being multilingual is a plus and I'm happy Montreal is multilingual. In fact, I would be 100% ok if it is no longer a French city 20+ years from now. I speak French, I understand it, but we have enough restrictions in Quebec and it's time to open up and be more connected to the world, rather than being in a little bubble. If you and people who think like you don't like it, you can either make your own country, make your own province (leave MTL within Canada) or move to France. I'm from here, my mothertongue is Italian, and speaking English has brought me so many opportunities. But you still seem to be salty from issues that happened 300+ years ago, get over it.
Yes I am aware of how much Quebecois value their leisure and comfort. In a fast paced and growing metro area like Greater Montreal however, such luxuries are going to be less and less affordable in the future. I'd prefer Carrefour Laval and other shopping centres to stagger their hours and maybe open later so that they can close later. From what I saw at Carrefour Laval, I think there are many new people to Montreal, new hardworking immigrants who will not mind working late hours and taking the late shifts if allowed. Remember what I said in my original post that Carrefour Laval was packed with shoppers all the way to the last minute. I arrived at the centre only after 1600 hours and would have thought it would be very quiet with few people at that late hour. I was wrong. The demand for later shopping hours is definitely there.
Well, it could be worse. In Germany most retail shops will only be open on Saturdays until about 12 noon or 1 pm, and be closed all day Sunday, unless things have changed.
In fact, I would be 100% ok if it is no longer a French city 20+ years from now..
But Montreal no longer being a city that functions primarily in French 20 years from now would not lead to a happy dénouement from a societal and political standpoint.
You'd lose a big part of the carefree, easygoing city that you (it seems) have come to love.
Montreal in the days when all of these crises last went down was not the same city that it is today. I am old enough to remember them and trust me that as a Montrealer you don't want to go back to that.
I speak French, I understand it, but we have enough restrictions in Quebec and it's time to open up and be more connected to the world, rather than being in a little bubble. .
Bringing more English into the everyday operational life of a city like Montreal will not make it more open and more connected to the rest of the planet.
To use a metaphorical example, kicking De père en flic and Bon cop Bad cop out of the list of 10 most popular movies and replacing them with yet another Jerry Bruckheimer Revolution Studios blockbuster isn't what will make Montreal more unique, interestingly or even worldly.
Montreal in the days when all of these crises last went down was not the same city that it is today. I am old enough to remember them and trust me that as a Montrealer you don't want to go back to that.
You remember the October Crisis?
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