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Old 04-18-2012, 11:01 AM
 
6,351 posts, read 3,780,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
I've already stated why I don't think ND and FSU and Clemson seem less likely to join the Big 12. My comments aren't based on "wishful thinking" but fact.

ND's ties are not with Big 12 schools. It's not going to make a move into a conference until it absolutely has to. If it can maintain its BE arrangement, I'm sure it's more than happy to and obviously prefers that for its non football sports (well maybe less so now).

Money would have to be the only consideration that those 2 ACC schools think about in moving to another conference that is not the SEC where they lose all of their southeastern games.

Missouri will get paid well, but be on the geographic fringe of a conference that it will have significant challenge in doing well. However, their discontent in the Big 12 helped push them out. It's obvious that they wanted to be in the Big 10 and it makes more sense than the SEC, but this is the new world teams are in.

It wasn't that long ago, talk was serious that the Big 12 North teams (most of them anyway) were going to be invited to the Big East, as some of the other schools were so pissed at UT that they were ready to sign on to the PAC10. UT adjusted and they made it work. The Big East adjusted too. Not sure how that will work and the basketball school issue is still a fault line there.

FSU is a top program and Clemson is doing well more or less. I realize that short term memory - what have they done lately - persists in cfb, but it wasn't that long ago that FSU and Miami were contenders each year. For all of the SEC championships now, how many did they have in the 80s?
After UGA, they didn't win until Bama in the early 90s...

Conferences and schools can't make conference moves based on short term performance. Perhaps, money is incentive enough for teams to bolt, but other logistics have to work as well.

It's possible that those schools leave the ACC, but I don't see enough reason right now. Things could change, but I don't see it right now.
Like I said they are talking about leaving. My guess is they dont want to join the Big 12 this since it almost broke up last year, although no more teams are leaving since the conference still gets the revenue from a team even if they leave. FSU & Clemson want to see how the Big 12 does and how much money they make. If things dont dramatically improve in the ACC & if the Big 12 is as expected they are leaving. You can give whatever reasoning you want to try and deny it, but it wont change this fact.

FSU & Miami were good teams, until they went to the ACC. That is exactly why they are not happy with the conference. Now there is a slim chance that ACC will improve next year enough to keep them.

Remember every school that every left a conference started has a rumor. FSU & Clemson want the ACC to know they are talking to the Big 12. They are trying to gain influence over the ACC, and so far the ACC has not given them any because just like the Big E the ACC is run by academically focused basketball schools. FSU & Clemson are big public universities that want a good football program. They also want more money.

Blame the ACC. They were poised to be a good Football conference but poor leadership ruined that.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:18 PM
 
3,271 posts, read 2,924,094 times
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You can give whatever reasoning you want to try and deny it, but it wont change this fact.
I'm not denying anything. I'm just pointing some things out.
I think some here think that every comment is hyper partisan. Comments about the ACC as being the Big East etc etc don't add up to me and it has nothing to do with Pitt joining them.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
I'm not denying anything. I'm just pointing some things out.
I think some here think that every comment is hyper partisan. Comments about the ACC as being the Big East etc etc don't add up to me and it has nothing to do with Pitt joining them.
Im not being partisan.

The ACC is looking similar to the Big E. Focus on basketball, a few basketball schools runninv the conference, football schools are unhappy and looking to leave, stronger conferences looking to raid them, and a lot of ACC teams are former Big E ones. They are not the same but very similar. After the ACC loses its football schools they will be even more similar.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:56 PM
 
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There are big differences between the BB and FB situation with the BE and ACC.

All of the schools are in all sports. The marriage of the BB only schools with football schools in the BE was a tension that was building in the era of expansion. It was hard to reconcile the differences.

The ACC doesn't have that dynamic. The BB schools don't have an upper hand. All schools vote and there's no awkward marriage as all schools are involved in both sports.

The ACC has not been in danger of collapsing. The Big 12 almost did less than a year ago and once again has an uneven relationship with the basketballs schools of the Big East being Texas this time. I hope the Big 12 doesn't implode, but it and the Big East were and are the two unstable ones. The ACC wasn't subject to those dynamics. There is a great deal of parity and also research funding. There's no denying that if the Big 10 and SEC feel compelled to expand, that the ACC is a likely target, but at least targeted schools have more reasons to leave to those two conferences.

It's more likely that the Big 12 will get more geographically centered UL and Cincy (which bridges the geo gap with WVU) than southeastern teams.
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:33 PM
 
6,351 posts, read 3,780,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
There are big differences between the BB and FB situation with the BE and ACC.

All of the schools are in all sports. The marriage of the BB only schools with football schools in the BE was a tension that was building in the era of expansion. It was hard to reconcile the differences.

The ACC doesn't have that dynamic. The BB schools don't have an upper hand. All schools vote and there's no awkward marriage as all schools are involved in both sports.

The ACC has not been in danger of collapsing. The Big 12 almost did less than a year ago and once again has an uneven relationship with the basketballs schools of the Big East being Texas this time. I hope the Big 12 doesn't implode, but it and the Big East were and are the two unstable ones. The ACC wasn't subject to those dynamics. There is a great deal of parity and also research funding. There's no denying that if the Big 10 and SEC feel compelled to expand, that the ACC is a likely target, but at least targeted schools have more reasons to leave to those two conferences.

It's more likely that the Big 12 will get more geographically centered UL and Cincy (which bridges the geo gap with WVU) than southeastern teams.
You are wrong, many of the football oriented schools in the ACC are not happy that a few basketball oriented schools really call all the shots. The leaderships favors the basketball ones. The situation is not exactly the same as the Big E but it is very similar.

The Big 12 was formerly a stable conference and you saw how it almost imploded. The ACC is VERY unstable right now. I dont see it completely imploding and dissolving but you are going to lose teams.

If the Big 12 is as profitable as expected, and things dont change in the ACC say goodbye to Clemson and FSU. They would have already left, but they want Georgia Tech to come too, and Georgia Tech is reluctant. They are in the process of trying to get it to come with them to the Big 12. Eventually they will take it with them when they leave or they will leave without it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:20 PM
 
6,506 posts, read 4,790,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
I've already stated why I don't think ND and FSU and Clemson seem less likely to join the Big 12. My comments aren't based on "wishful thinking" but fact.

ND's ties are not with Big 12 schools. It's not going to make a move into a conference until it absolutely has to. If it can maintain its BE arrangement, I'm sure it's more than happy to and obviously prefers that for its non football sports (well maybe less so now).

Money would have to be the only consideration that those 2 ACC schools think about in moving to another conference that is not the SEC where they lose all of their southeastern games.

Missouri will get paid well, but be on the geographic fringe of a conference that it will have significant challenge in doing well. However, their discontent in the Big 12 helped push them out. It's obvious that they wanted to be in the Big 10 and it makes more sense than the SEC, but this is the new world teams are in.

It wasn't that long ago, talk was serious that the Big 12 North teams (most of them anyway) were going to be invited to the Big East, as some of the other schools were so pissed at UT that they were ready to sign on to the PAC10. UT adjusted and they made it work. The Big East adjusted too. Not sure how that will work and the basketball school issue is still a fault line there.

FSU is a top program and Clemson is doing well more or less. I realize that short term memory - what have they done lately - persists in cfb, but it wasn't that long ago that FSU and Miami were contenders each year. For all of the SEC championships now, how many did they have in the 80s?
After UGA, they didn't win until Bama in the early 90s...

Conferences and schools can't make conference moves based on short term performance. Perhaps, money is incentive enough for teams to bolt, but other logistics have to work as well.

It's possible that those schools leave the ACC, but I don't see enough reason right now. Things could change, but I don't see it right now.
Money would be a huge consideration, but it sure wouldn't be the only consideration. The chance to play against teams in a league that acutally cares about its football product would be very important to those schools.
And it isn't just short term memory as you suggest, although that is a factor too. Those schools have long been known to be dissatisfied with the ACC's football profile, and the recent additions by the conference did not address those concerns. You have programs there that put 80,000 butts in the seats in stadiums they actually own, and that have 25,000 fans show up for their spring game, not the 200 at Boston College or the 4000 at a high school field for Pitt.

The only reason they don't have enough reason to leave right now is because nobody better is expanding any further right now. It will be happening in the next few years. I think that is a given. They'd be idiots to remain in a glorified Big East when they have far better options.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:33 PM
 
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They'd be idiots to remain in a glorified Big East when they have far better options.
Yes if the Big 10 or SEC comes calling, the might go. We're not talking about those conferences though.

Half of the Big 12 almost became the BE, but whatever. Nobody denies the BB interest in the ACC, but it's foolish to think that football does figure seriously into their purpose. If the Big 12 picks up those 2 schools, I will have been wrong and fine with it. Reality just ain't the dreamy scenario that WVU fans on the sports forums think it is. It's interesting how most of the other comments see it very differently and Clemson/FSU fans have little interest in Kansas, compared to playing their regional rivals or SEC rivals.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:52 PM
 
6,351 posts, read 3,780,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
Yes if the Big 10 or SEC comes calling, the might go. We're not talking about those conferences though.

Half of the Big 12 almost became the BE, but whatever. Nobody denies the BB interest in the ACC, but it's foolish to think that football does figure seriously into their purpose. If the Big 12 picks up those 2 schools, I will have been wrong and fine with it. Reality just ain't the dreamy scenario that WVU fans on the sports forums think it is. It's interesting how most of the other comments see it very differently and Clemson/FSU fans have little interest in Kansas, compared to playing their regional rivals or SEC rivals.
It is all over the internet.

So maybe in the Pitt forums you can sit around in denial and pretend everything is ok, but the truth is looking very bad for the ACC.

They are talking with the Big 12. The Big 12 is a leading football conference, and could become even better at it. FSU & Clemson want to have a good football program, and dont want to be stuck in a terrible football conference that only cares about basketball.

I am sorry Pitt is stuck in the ACC. I wish they could have came with WVU to keep the rivalry going, but it is not WVU's fault. It is also not WVU's fault that the ACC is about to fall apart, although the Big 12 will contribute to this.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:56 PM
 
3,271 posts, read 2,924,094 times
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It is all over the internet.
Exactly.

I get it. The same points will be made again and again.
The ACC has long been stable, but based on recent chit chat, they are doomed. Plus they are weak either way. Meanwhile the Big 12 which was not stable, is stable.
Fine. Good. I'm very content with being "stuck" in the ACC. When half of the powerhouse Big 12 was likely to folded into the BE, I thought that was horrible idea, but you obviously disagree.

That's fine. You're happy too.

Last edited by JoeP; 04-18-2012 at 05:06 PM..
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:17 PM
 
6,351 posts, read 3,780,926 times
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Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
Exactly.

I get it. The same points will be made again and again.
The ACC has long been stable, but based on recent chit chat, they are doomed. Plus they are weak either way. Meanwhile the Big 12 which was not stable, is stable.
Fine. Good. I'm very content with being "stuck" in the ACC. When half of the powerhouse Big 12 was likely to folded into the BE, I thought that was horrible idea, but you obviously disagree.

That's fine. You're happy too.
These things have always turned out to be true.

VT and BC leaving the BE for the ACC was a rumor.

A&M leaving the Big 12 for the SEC was a rumor.

It was rumor that WVU was talking to the SEC, and after that fell through their was a rumor they were talking to the Big 12.

Even Pitt was rumor to be talking to the ACC.

Now it is rumored that FSU & Clemson are talking to the Big 12. The rumor is very detailed with both schools ready to leave, and the only thing holding them back is trying to convince Georgia Tech. These rumors come from the big sports blogs that dont make things up and every time one of these rumors has came up it turned out true. The rumor is NOT they are leaving the ACC but are unhappy and discussing possibly leaving the ACC to join the Big 12.

Now you can choose to dismiss it, but when it turns out true in the next 1-3 years dont be surprised.

My biggest hope for Pitt is that at some point there will be a rumor of them getting off the ACC ship, which is about to hit an iceberg, before it sinks.
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