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Old 11-21-2014, 04:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The Center on Alcohol marketing and Youth is located in the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and is funded by the CDC. What bias do you perceive that it has? remember that Iceland does not allow marketing of alcoholic beverages. Are you familiar with "alcopop"? If you do not think that those products are targeted at young drinkers, you might want to reconsider. Marketing of alcohol is an important issue.

Summary of Findings: What Teens and Adults are Saying "Alcopops"



Violence related to heavy alcohol consumption is a world-wide phenomenon. It is not exclusive to the US.

http://www.who.int/violence_injury_p...s/fs_youth.pdf



Do you really think that "It is better for that drinking to take place in bars, because the bar owners have a vested interest in controlling behavior there." ? A binge drinker of legal age gets cut off in one bar, he just leaves and goes to another. Bars should be checking ID and not serving minors. Enforcement there is out of the bailiwick of the college or university and is not really the issue in the thread, which is sororities and fraternities actually applying pressure on underage students to drink.

You seem determined to ignore evidence that does not match your personal experience. Instead of blithely dismissing it, please show me evidence that contradicts what I have presented. "Europe" does have problems with binge drinking in its underage population, though the magnitude varies with country. That you do not see it does not mean it does not happen.

Teaching responsible use by allowing kids to drink at home does not work, either:




http://experts.umn.edu/pubDetail.asp...id=79955579941

"Adult-supervised settings for alcohol use resulted in higher levels of harmful alcohol consequences, contrary to predictions derived from harm-minimization policy. Findings challenge the harm-minimization position that supervised alcohol use or early-age alcohol use will reduce the development of adolescent alcohol problems."

Your denial that low doses of alcohol impair the ability to drive sounds suspiciously like an attempt to rationalize your own behavior. The degree of impairment by alcohol is proportional to dose and begins at a blood alcohol level not much greater than zero.

A REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE ON THE EFFECTS OF LOW DOSES OF ALCOHOL ON DRIVING-RELATED SKILLS - Transport Research International Documentation - TRID

The studies included measured actual effects of alcohol on specific driving skills in laboratory settings.

Just whose "laboratories" might that be?

To get back to the topic of the thread. The Greek system needs to undergo a fundamental change in its approach to drinking. That means not applying pressure on underage students to drink and not serving alcohol to them at all. Sorority and fraternity alumni need to spearhead the change. Underage drinking is a behavior, too, and applying strict penalties for it makes more sense than waiting until destructive behavior results from it. The national leadership of the sororities and fraternities - the grown-ups in those institutions - need to take charge and set and enforce policies of not serving alcohol to minors and not condoning binge drinking by anyone.
I QUESTION THE INTEGRITY OF ANY ORGANIZATION THAT HAS THE NAME BLOOMBERG ATTACHED TO IT.
Anything associated with that family is absolutely bound to have a built in bias. The thing is, you are not going to stop people from drinking in any event. You won't be able to stop them with some arbitrary age restriction either. They have tried to stop people from drinking for almost 100 years. Drinking is part of our culture. You might not like it, but it is what it is, and you won't be able to stop it.

It is true that heavy alcohol consumption is definitely not a good thing, which is why it is important that people learn to drink responsibly at an early age rather than enter adulthood having been totally deprived of the opportunity to do so by repressive parenting and laws.

You have your opinions and we can accept that. You are entitled to them, but to answer your question I very much disagree with you. In my nearly 72 years of live, during some of which I worked as a police officer and decades of which I worked as a clinically certified behavior change employee in prisons in West Virginia and New York State, I have my own experience base on which to draw. It might not match up with Bloomberg's opinions or yours, but it is at least as valid. But, now you claim you can get inside my head and read my mind. You can have your suspicions if you will. I have mine about you too, but we won't go into that.

I do not "promote early age drinking". I promote the teaching of responsible use of alcohol in the home, and I point to the obvious fact that people are legally adults at age 18, and there is no way you can stop they from drinking no matter how many restrictive laws you pass. 18 is an arbitrary age, as it 16 or 21. But 18 is the legal age of adulthood. People can do everything at age 18... vote, serve as military or police, and exercise all rights and responsibilities as citizens. There is no logic in trying to deprive them of the right to drink responsibly. They will do it anyway, you're going to have to accept that because you can't change it.

I have actually lived through periods of time when the drinking age was 18 as well as the current, unenforceable 21. They had a lot less trouble around college campuses when it was 18... a LOT less trouble. Nobody said there would not be binge drinking if age is not considered the determining factor. I said there would be fewer problems associated with drinking if the 18 year limit is ignored or changed, and if the focus would change to targeting inappropriate behavior instead of wasting resources on policies that actually make the situation worse. Bar owners actually do control bad behavior in their establishments. Back yards and living rooms do not. Young people tend to drink less when they have to pay for it by the drink, and they behave better when they are being observed by people who will not tolerate them acting out.

The Austin, TX model would we best used here in Morgantown. They block off the party district on weekend nights and let the young people do as they please there as long as their behavior doesn't get out of hand. It works there, and it would work here.
I agree that pressure should not be applied to anybody to drink, regardless of their age. Age should not be a factor. 18 year olds are NOT minors. They are adults in every sense, and they absolutely should be treated as such with full responsibility for any inappropriate behavior.

Last edited by CTMountaineer; 11-21-2014 at 05:16 PM..
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Old 11-21-2014, 07:39 PM
 
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How can we send an 18 year old to Iraq to risk his or hers life and when they make it home tell them they can't have a beer because it's too risky?
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Old 11-21-2014, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,981 posts, read 40,955,833 times
Reputation: 44901
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
I QUESTION THE INTEGRITY OF ANY ORGANIZATION THAT HAS THE NAME BLOOMBERG ATTACHED TO IT.
This argument is pretty limp. Do you have any evidence that contradicts the material in the link?

Quote:
The Austin, TX model would we best used here in Morgantown. They block off the party district on weekend nights and let the young people do as they please there as long as their behavior doesn't get out of hand. It works there, and it would work here.
You mean Sixth Street?

Who Owns Sixth Street: Austin's Mecca for the Young and the Restless Considers an Upscale Makeover - News - The Austin Chronicle

Crime and the City Solution: Do you know who's killing Austin's golden goose? - Music - The Austin Chronicle

It does not appear to work very well. As far as I can tell, nothing has changed since that article in 2001, although there is now (as of about a year ago) actually a project to redesign the area.

"When I moved down here there were more boarded-up buildings than there were active businesses," he said. "I was here for the first round of gentrification. At that time, Sixth Street was what the Warehouse District is at this point: popular with the thirtysomething young professionals. It was very popular and very successful." That is, until 18-year-olds, then legal under the state's lowered drinking age, began frequenting the street, which lowered the average age of Sixth patrons by nearly 10 years. In 1985, the Legislature raised the drinking age back to 21, but by that point, Creagh said, the damage was done.

"All the dynamics that we created for the district, that we were trying to create, were gone," he said. "Sixth Street has struggled with an identity crisis ever since. It is scarred by that experience." Indeed, even though the drinking age rose again, many of the clubs continued to -- and still do -- allow minors in to dance and hear live music. Underage kids are marked with wristbands or stamps, yet many still find a way to get a drink. Or, as many club owners point out, the kids find a place to drink before coming to the street and arrive already drunk. "The minor situation, that's where the problems are," said Gary Manley, owner of the Iron Cactus. "When you're 17 or 18, you think you're invincible. You don't care if you get in a fight or cause problems. But at 30, that's the last thing you want to do."

Quote:
I agree that pressure should not be applied to anybody to drink, regardless of their age. Age should not be a factor. 18 year olds are NOT minors. They are adults in every sense, and they absolutely should be treated as such with full responsibility for any inappropriate behavior.
The fact is that the adolescent brain may be more susceptible to adverse effects of alcohol. Since a legal age of 21 does deter some from drinking, lowering the minimum legal age is inadvisable.

None of this addresses the issue of the culture of heavy drinking promoted by sororities and fraternities. That will not change until the national administrations of those organizations do something about it.
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Old 11-21-2014, 10:17 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 14,982,449 times
Reputation: 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
This argument is pretty limp. Do you have any evidence that contradicts the material in the link?



You mean Sixth Street?

Who Owns Sixth Street: Austin's Mecca for the Young and the Restless Considers an Upscale Makeover - News - The Austin Chronicle

Crime and the City Solution: Do you know who's killing Austin's golden goose? - Music - The Austin Chronicle

It does not appear to work very well. As far as I can tell, nothing has changed since that article in 2001, although there is now (as of about a year ago) actually a project to redesign the area.

"When I moved down here there were more boarded-up buildings than there were active businesses," he said. "I was here for the first round of gentrification. At that time, Sixth Street was what the Warehouse District is at this point: popular with the thirtysomething young professionals. It was very popular and very successful." That is, until 18-year-olds, then legal under the state's lowered drinking age, began frequenting the street, which lowered the average age of Sixth patrons by nearly 10 years. In 1985, the Legislature raised the drinking age back to 21, but by that point, Creagh said, the damage was done.

"All the dynamics that we created for the district, that we were trying to create, were gone," he said. "Sixth Street has struggled with an identity crisis ever since. It is scarred by that experience." Indeed, even though the drinking age rose again, many of the clubs continued to -- and still do -- allow minors in to dance and hear live music. Underage kids are marked with wristbands or stamps, yet many still find a way to get a drink. Or, as many club owners point out, the kids find a place to drink before coming to the street and arrive already drunk. "The minor situation, that's where the problems are," said Gary Manley, owner of the Iron Cactus. "When you're 17 or 18, you think you're invincible. You don't care if you get in a fight or cause problems. But at 30, that's the last thing you want to do."



The fact is that the adolescent brain may be more susceptible to adverse effects of alcohol. Since a legal age of 21 does deter some from drinking, lowering the minimum legal age is inadvisable.

None of this addresses the issue of the culture of heavy drinking promoted by sororities and fraternities. That will not change until the national administrations of those organizations do something about it.
You're missing my point. I lived and worked in the NYC area for many years. I am more than familiar with that disgusting reprobate named Bloomberg. He is a billionaire who uses his wealth to promote liberty depriving causes all over this country, then he goes to the Middle East where he promotes aggressive causes that act to destabilize that entire region. He is the idiot that actually tried to make it illegal to drink 16 ounces of Coca Cola in New York. You actually want to believe something that he has put his money into promoting? Enough said. I wouldn't bother to waste my time on any crap his organizations put out.

And, yes I mean 6th. Street. Aside from the article you found that was probably written by vestiges of the Womens Christian Temperance League, it is a vibrant social area that has repurposed an area in decline. It is popular in Austin and frequently visited by students and visitors alike, and it keeps roudy activities from suddenly appearing in other parts of the city. Have you ever been there? I have, and it is a safe, fun place to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_S...(Austin,_Texas)

The legal age of 21 deters NOBODY from drinking. There are some bars who enforce it, but that just drives it elsewhere. If it is enforced rigidly someplace, it takes place in backyards and living rooms and it tends to be of the binge variety. Maybe you missed it, but 18 year olds are considered adults in our country. Their bodies might have some adolescent characteristics until they are 25, but they are legally adults. It is not your right, nor should it be the Government's right, to deprive them of the same rights you enjoy. That includes the right to make bad decisions, and plenty of them do just that, but that is the way some people learn, after all.

I've said it before, and I repeat... trot out all your liberal, Nazi-like control "studies" you want. The actual facts associated with the experiences of people closest to the situation... police officers, judges, jails, will all tell you that a 30 year old drunk is not one bit better than an 18 year old drunk. And, since the 18 year old is going to drink anyway, it is better for him to do it in a sanctioned location where he can freely exercise his rights as an adult in a place where everyone's behavior is scrutinized.
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Old 11-21-2014, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,981 posts, read 40,955,833 times
Reputation: 44901
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
You're missing my point. I lived and worked in the NYC area for many years. I am more than familiar with that disgusting reprobate named Bloomberg. He is a billionaire who uses his wealth to promote liberty depriving causes all over this country, then he goes to the Middle East where he promotes aggressive causes that act to destabilize that entire region. He is the idiot that actually tried to make it illegal to drink 16 ounces of Coca Cola in New York. You actually want to believe something that he has put his money into promoting? Enough said. I wouldn't bother to waste my time on any crap his organizations put out.

And, yes I mean 6th. Street. Aside from the article you found that was probably written by vestiges of the Womens Christian Temperance League, it is a vibrant social area that has repurposed an area in decline. It is popular in Austin and frequently visited by students and visitors alike, and it keeps roudy activities from suddenly appearing in other parts of the city. Have you ever been there? I have, and it is a safe, fun place to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_S...(Austin,_Texas)

The legal age of 21 deters NOBODY from drinking. There are some bars who enforce it, but that just drives it elsewhere. If it is enforced rigidly someplace, it takes place in backyards and living rooms and it tends to be of the binge variety. Maybe you missed it, but 18 year olds are considered adults in our country. Their bodies might have some adolescent characteristics until they are 25, but they are legally adults. It is not your right, nor should it be the Government's right, to deprive them of the same rights you enjoy. That includes the right to make bad decisions, and plenty of them do just that, but that is the way some people learn, after all.

I've said it before, and I repeat... trot out all your liberal, Nazi-like control "studies" you want. The actual facts associated with the experiences of people closest to the situation... police officers, judges, jails, will all tell you that a 30 year old drunk is not one bit better than an 18 year old drunk. And, since the 18 year old is going to drink anyway, it is better for him to do it in a sanctioned location where he can freely exercise his rights as an adult in a place where everyone's behavior is scrutinized.

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Old 11-22-2014, 07:06 AM
 
79,902 posts, read 43,907,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
We send an 18 year old to Iraq to risk his life in a useless vain attempt to, well, nobody really knows why and when he comes home how can we tell him he can not have a beer because it's too risky?
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Old 11-22-2014, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,981 posts, read 40,955,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
We send an 18 year old to Iraq to risk his life in a useless vain attempt to, well, nobody really knows why and when he comes home how can we tell him he can not have a beer because it's too risky?
Not every 18 year old is mature enough to be a soldier. We tell those that are that because so many 18 year olds are irresponsible, we will set the drinking age at 21 and ask him to continue to show his own maturity by not drinking until he can legally do so.

The US military is probably not the best example for responsible drinking.

US military

NIAAA Publications
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Old 11-22-2014, 12:23 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 14,982,449 times
Reputation: 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Not every 18 year old is mature enough to be a soldier. We tell those that are that because so many 18 year olds are irresponsible, we will set the drinking age at 21 and ask him to continue to show his own maturity by not drinking until he can legally do so.

The US military is probably not the best example for responsible drinking.

US military

NIAAA Publications
Not every 35 year old is mature enough to be a soldier. That has nothing to do with it. Who are you to decide whether or not someone fits your definition of "mature"? If, as you suppose, 18 year olds are not mature enough to live as adults then we shouldn't be trusting them with the responsibilities of voting, living away from their parents homes, driving cars, and any number of other activities that require adult skills. You can't have it both ways, although that is a typical leftist position. If you want 18 year olds helping to advance the feel good causes, then you gotta treat them like adults including adult rights and responsibilities. There is absolutely no logic in any other position.

By the way, I am not especially fond of Canada, but they have an 18 year old "drinking age" they don't bother enforcing and it doesn't seem to be causing extra trouble for them.
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Old 11-22-2014, 01:52 PM
 
79,902 posts, read 43,907,746 times
Reputation: 17184
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Not every 18 year old is mature enough to be a soldier. We tell those that are that because so many 18 year olds are irresponsible, we will set the drinking age at 21 and ask him to continue to show his own maturity by not drinking until he can legally do so.

The US military is probably not the best example for responsible drinking.

US military

NIAAA Publications
You didn't answer my question but I really didn't expect you to.

The military doesn't impose a maturity test.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:57 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 14,982,449 times
Reputation: 1782
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
You didn't answer my question but I really didn't expect you to.

The military doesn't impose a maturity test.
I am certainly in agreement with you that 18 year olds should have every adult right, and that is is senseless to deprive them of those rights, you are wrong about the military. It definitely takes someone with adult maturity to get through military basic training. Now, there are more than a million people in the military and like any other group of people, some of them drink too much. They have stress filled jobs, and in some cases that is an outcome but the notion that Government can deprive them the same rights enjoyed by everyone else is ludicrous.
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