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Old 07-30-2008, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,116,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantoms View Post
TM, who am I? I'm not a subprime borrower. I'm a hard working person who bought what I could afford, with good credit and a good fixed rate because of it. I could have bought more than double what I did, but didn't. I understood that I and I alone was responsible for what I signed and decided that even though my mortgage company pre-approved me for nearly three times what I bought, that I would rather have less and be able to afford it and life's little happenings that always seem to pop up at the worst times.

You can continue to go on blaming everyone else and I'll ignore you from now on.

And what makes you think I'm no different than you huh? So if you're that and NOT in this situation, then I must be the opposite right..

I am a hardworking person that had decent credit.. not bad, not good. Want to know why my score was not higher.. get this.. BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE ANY OPEN LINES OF CREDIT.. because i was being responsible with my money and SAVING my money.

what did I buy.. a STARTER.. STARTER home that was not only a STARTER but a fixer upper.. and on top of that I put my LIFE SAVINGS INTO MY HOME.

Again.. I am to blame.. but not take the entire blame.. you wnat to see everything in black and white.. you go right ahead.. but the world doesn't operate in only black and white. There are circumstances that were beyond my control..

everyone wants to liken taking an ARM to gambling in Vegas..however.. vegas is left up to PURE CHANCE.. there's no one their that issupposed to regulate where that ball lies on that wheel.. there is not supposed to be things there to protect the gambler.. however, in the mortgage industry there is supposed to be sound judgement excercised by financial guru's and professionals.. and they did the opposite and not only hurt themselves.. but hurt everyone else in the process.. My only fault was signign an ARM, which would have worked and NOT been a problem in any other normal circumstances but as we all know this is FAR BEYOND NORMAL Circumstances put in place by those that were supposed to be the regulators, overseers and control of the business.... I WAS NOT THE ONE HANDING OUT MORTGAGES TO PEOPLE THAT DID NOT HAVE SUFFICIENT INCOME TO COVER NORMAL INTEREST RATES.. I was not the one that sold bad paper on wall street!! THAT IS MY FREAKING POINT THAT YOU CANT SEEM TO GRASP....

YES.. I BLAME MYSELF.. BUT I ALSO BLAME ALL THE OTHER YAHOOS THAT CREATED THIS RIDICULOUS MARKET CONDITIONS.. Again.. I make a great living and Ibougth one of the cheapest homes I could get in one of the "affordable" neighborhoods.. I didn't buy above my means.. not at all.. I bought with the wrong product AT THE WRONG TIME PERIOD..
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:02 PM
 
25,352 posts, read 37,533,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantoms View Post
TM, who am I? I'm not a subprime borrower. I'm a hard working person who bought what I could afford, with good credit and a good fixed rate because of it. I could have bought more than double what I did, but didn't. I understood that I and I alone was responsible for what I signed and decided that even though my mortgage company pre-approved me for nearly three times what I bought, that I would rather have less and be able to afford it and life's little happenings that always seem to pop up at the worst times.

You can continue to go on blaming everyone else and I'll ignore you from now on.
What you describe is what most (people in financial trouble) should have done and didn't do. Even on the tv shows I see people talked into mortgages and told that the extra $ 5,000.- they have to pay for the house is only $... a month extra, left out is the extra taxes they have to pay that comes back over and over ....
Reading all what is going back and forward I understand what TM is trying to get accross but still IMO it doesn't add up. She is stating that if she just had gotten the fixed rate she could manage....but she already took advantage of the very low rate and wants a low rate again, what about all others who have paid higher rates all the time because the understood that once an ARM was reseting and the next would come, they wouldn't be able to afford it. Even today I noticed one ARM for 1% at start which would go up very quick to 11%, beginning at $ 640.- a month, so if that was 1% can you imagine what 11% is...!!! You don't have to be an economic expert to understand what will happen if you can't flip your house very quick.
I don't understand what part TM didn't understand. The ARM was going to reset and if she didn't plan on a quick sale she would have to make so much more money in the near future and how does anyone afford that by being self employed. Increases are possible but how many self employed people are making more and more in a short period? IMO it is just basic math and an ARM doesn't have to be bad for everyone but you have to buy less expensive.

I just spoke with a neighbor who moved out of her house (overnight) and is now changing her mind of just walking away but trying to sell the house and even thinking about a normal sale..., I asked her how she thought she could do that in a community with 60 houses in foreclosure and she had no clue what so ever.... She told me she had called for her husbands car to be picked up since she didn't have the money to pay for it and repo got it, she didn't wanted to play a cat and mouse game, which she told me her neighbor is doing by driving as less as possible and hide the car in the garage.
So it isn't only the people aren't paying the mortgage or you can call it the rent to the mortgage company because with zero down you own nothing and IMO you are renting and they pay nothing for over a year....don't pay their car loans, don't pay the credit card companies.....so what is it we have to feel sorry for them.......other people have to work to pay for it too and don't have a money tree in the backyard, and aren't doing all the luxurious stuff many off the people defaulting are doing as I have witnessed with my own eyes. The brand new leased mercedes that is hiding in the garage, having a newspaper every day, having the cable box with the most options you can get which IMO is still a luxurious item because basic cable is incl. in the HOA where we live, telling the people in our neighborhood about all the time they went out to get dinner....the restaurants are more expensive than making a home cooked dinner....and not having a job and bringing one dime in....

Just one example: we have a professional in real estate who couldn't sell one home in todays market and the husband quits his job to go hiking for 6 months , coming and couldn't get a job because the job market isn't so good for a male above 50!!! The wife can't get a job because of her past and still doing all the above.....every house has their own story but so far we haven't seen many very sad stories that weren't their own fault. Even an article in a local paper caused a lot of anger since the people's house was foreclosed by the HOA and they were trying to get symphaty by going to the media...didn't succeed because most comments were that the diabetees the people had was caused by obesity and because of that losing their jobs. 3 kids were sitting in the picture, all adults and none were working...and complaining...well it back fired since the large majority was appauled by this.
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,116,537 times
Reputation: 908
Listen.. I could go on and on and on .. and this could go on forever on these boards..

My message is this.. once and for all..

Did I make a mistake with an ARM.. yes I did. Why did I make a mistake? well a few things.. 1) I was only offered and ARM and not a fixed by my mortgage broker.. not even a fixed at a higher rate.. hindsight is 20/20.. but then again.. I didn't know that they make more on an ARM than a fixed. Someone mentioned maybe my income didn't qualify for the higher percentage rate.. well then why the hell did they give me something that would eventually adjust to a higher percentage rate than a fixed they would have offered? That doesn't make much sense and I think a logical person would think the same thing. If they knew I couldnt' afford the adjustmetns, as i did, why did they give it to me anyway if refinancing was going to be so difficult..

Did I account for "what ifs". yes I did.. First.. I accounted for me bringing in less with baby on the way, i also accounted for increase in expenses with said baby. Now.. I was also renovating said home..as it was a diasaster.. so I was adding value with new kitchen/ baths etc. So even if the home , untouched, hadn't gained any value or even decreased, in a normal market the home would have gained slighty or even remained where it was.. which would be fine.. since the issue was NOT that I had a high LTV, according to my broker, but that the credit score wasn't sufficient enough to qualify for a fixed (that's what I was told adn believed.. wether it's true or not, I don't know now and I question). And remember.. my score was not high because I had no recent credit history as I swore off credit cards to be "more responsible".. go figure that itwould hurt me..

So.. what went wrong.. well i did all taht I planned.. paid my mortgage on time, got my score up by opening some lines of credit.. but then .. wHAM.. mortgages started defaulting left and right..it came to light that those that purchased homes on meager salaries and really low teaser hybrid or exotic mortgages couldn't afford their adjustments to true market rates... last summer the mortgage industry tightened up their standards, which is fine.. but hurt me because at the same time my home value started declining and then my LTV became a problem.. since I'm self employed to begin with. Suddenly a scenario.. the market collapse due to bad loans being made left and right.. locked me out of the refinance that I thought would really not be a problem. Now.. i ask you.. how was I to know that all these loans taht went out were bad? I'm one person..

And i NEVEr imagined how bad the market could crash.. my god.. my home lost so much .. about $120K less than the appraisal when I got the mortgage.. OUCH.. again. how could I see that coming? If that could have even been a factor in my decision making.. if I knew it was even a true risk scenario.. I NEVER would have gone forward.

I do not believe that taxpayers should be on the hook.. nor the federal gov't. What I have thought from teh very beginning is that EVERY loan gone bad needs to be re-evaluated by the banks and those that weren't paying ridiculously low or paying interest only that can not afford a normal interest rate.. meaning market rates.. then they are beyond help. But not all mortgages made that were ARMS are low teasers.. mine started above the prime in 2005 and is still above prime today at the starting interest. However.. 6.5% is nothing to sneeze at. . and I think that in 2 years I have proved that I can pay it and on time..

Now.. I'm not asking for that for me now.. no.. I'm dome.. it's over for me.. but my point is, if the banks would jsut stop, re-evaluate and adjust then the ripple effect and severity of the problem could have and would be less severe as it's been. Thebill just passed sounded great.. but why could't the investors holding the mortgages make the same deal directly with their borrowers and left the gov't and the FHA out of it? You know. . the one where they get 50% of the equity (if you sellafter 5 years.. more if you sell before)?

I'm just as upset for the same reasons those NOT in this mess are.. I wonder how some of these other people.. the investors, the banks, the lenders could have been so callous and stupid.. i also am kicking myself for not learning more.. but i thought I did my due diligence.. again hindsight is 20/20. I'm angry that the powers that be.. that being the mortgage lenders/servicers/ investors.. let the problem get so bad that it's gotten to this piont.

All I wanted was what my parents had given me when I purchased this home.. a home.. a place that I knew that every day, every month for every year I wanted, I could come home with.ingrain myself inthe community with my neighbors etc. Unlike the experience i had when renting.. where the landlords would decide to sell.. or the only thing available was really dumpy and gross (rentals are hard to find on LI especially for families). I wanted a yard, etc. i wasn't looking for chapaigne on a beer budget, as is evident by what I purchased. I also worked very hard.. saved up money.. and worked on my house with pride.. my hsuband doing it with his own hands.. and us doing it with our own hard earned money.

Not all of us were callous, not all of us didn't really think about things before we acted.. we simply could not quantify into our equation something we could not see as a possibility.. and that is what I'm trying to make you all understand. I'm not trying to say it's everybody's fault but my own.. but the situation is so complex and complicated that there is blame to go all around. I had bad timing.. while I was ready for a home and this was the right time in my life for one.. it jsut wasn't the right market.. lesson learned.

But don't sit there and think that you are better because you're not loosing your home. .. because I or anyone else in this situation are not less than you.. nor are we any less hardworking or underserving. What really gets me is the generalizations that a lot of you make.. and perhaps it makes you feel better if you think the situation is so black and white..but it's not.. and that's all that I am trying to say..

You don't have to feel sorry for me.. I'm not asking for that.. but I am asking that you look at it from more than just one angle, one point of view. there are so many different types of people/scenarios that factor in. Believe me.. all you who have purchased your homes with fixed interest rates.. regardless of what any of us get in the way of help or not.. are in a good place.. and i would trade places with you any day. Rather than saying "oh look they got this rate now.. boo hooo" I would be happy that I didn'th ave to go through something as stressfull and emotional as this.

I've already moved on and have emotionally let go of the house I put my blood sweat and tears in. I only hope that the nexst person enjoys all the work I did and that they fill the house with the same love and joy I intended. I'll pick myself up, dust myself off and gear up to repair the credit I worked so hard to rebuild that is now once again destroyed so that I can once again live the dream of homeownership..

It's very hard to go so far back after having come so seemingly far and putting so much into it..
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:28 PM
GLS
 
1,985 posts, read 4,743,218 times
Reputation: 2406
Default A word to the wise

I would encourage all of you on this thread to review TM's posts in mid-April under the thread, "Would appreciate some good advice WITHOUT JUDGMENT please. You can draw your own conclusions regarding the degree of victimization, penchant for avoiding self-responsibility, and her recalcitrance at accepting any viewpoint that disagrees with her misperceptions. It may save you some effort in trying to help, or engage in what you intend as a constructive debate. Just my opinion (and experience).
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:33 PM
 
25,352 posts, read 37,533,691 times
Reputation: 13272
I recently bought a short sale and the owner took a judgment to prevent a foreclosure and to get back on her feet faster than having a foreclosure in her name. Smart...I guess so, she is a real estate lawyer specialized in foreclosures so she should have known, she didn't have a ARM but overpaid and knew the value was so much down and wanted to get out...Do I feel sorry, not at all, for me it was business and this can sound harsh to people reading this, but she tried to have me pay more and her realtor husband tried hard but we refused and that is why she took a judgment which IMO more people should do which can help by getting on your feet faster.

I realize that many pro's have given the wrong advise and hope they will pay the price for doing so and if TM feels that she was wrongly advised and has proof she should get it out there so something will be done about it.

I read in her post that the value goign down is a huge issue, but it is just air value if you aren't selling, prices always have gone up and down in real estate. So if you wait it will go up, only if you sell in a down market you are losing otherwise it is only on paper.

Good Luck and I do understand that you are upset and having kids and going through this is horrible....but investors took a risk too by having their money availble so others could get a mortgage and they are paying the price too. let's hope the pro market will be weeded out so the scumbags will not be able to return and the good pro's will get better times to give good advise.
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,116,537 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by GLS View Post
I would encourage all of you on this thread to review TM's posts in mid-April under the thread, "Would appreciate some good advice WITHOUT JUDGMENT please. You can draw your own conclusions regarding the degree of victimization, penchant for avoiding self-responsibility, and her recalcitrance at accepting any viewpoint that disagrees with her misperceptions. It may save you some effort in trying to help, or engage in what you intend as a constructive debate. Just my opinion (and experience).

First of all.. my viewpoint and my frame of mind has changed significantly since that post.. I've stepped back and evaluated. .. and at that time I was fighting like mad to hold on to the home.. and was angry that the banks were throwring the baby out with the bathwater.. it jsut doesn't and didn't make any sense to me whatesoever.. and it still doesn't.

Misconceptions.. there are alot of misconceptions out there but the misconceptions are by the general public NOT in this situation.. because you can't possibly know what i have gone through (and i'm not talking emotionally) and teh walls that I've met in my attempt to continue to pay my mortgage and live in my home.. and avoid being just another statistic contributing to the larger problem.

It's easy for those on the outside to sit in judgement and point the fingers at all us homeowners and say how horrible we all are. It's easy to sit from where you are and say we are an undeserving, unethical or not a hardworking group of people. You couldn't be more wrong.. Do some people fit that category you'd like to box us all into..sure they do, but not all.
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:55 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,911,582 times
Reputation: 2346
Wow. Just finished reading all the posts here. It's amazing how people fail to take responsibility for their own actions. It is indeed easier to point a finger at others and say "if not that then..."

And this is why we are in the credit and mortgage mess we are in today!
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,949,006 times
Reputation: 27520
An ARM is a risk..you could lose it all if rates go higher. People signed on the dotted line thinking it could never happen to them. Then they wake up and it did happen to them.

In today's society you gotta blame someone for your problems.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:25 PM
 
Location: No Sleep Til Brooklyn
1,413 posts, read 4,677,105 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheenie2000 View Post
...I don't think I would have realized that I would not be able to refinance to a lower rate *if the house price didn't go up.* No one tells you that and I don't think that's common knowledge. Maybe for some ppl that's common sense, but not for everyone. I was born and raised here, college educated, etc and I don't know all the little details about refinancing, how mortgages work etc....
I think Sheenie has an important point. I was reading a thread with a complaint about greedy buyers not being willing to pay what a house is worth outloud to my husband and made a comment about people not remembering the basic laws of supply and demand that they learned in high school. My husband, who has an MA, said to me, "I never learned about supply and demand in school."

What? He explained that he picked up the knowledge in his general reading, but never had an econ class in all of his schooling. I had econ my 2nd or 3rd year of high school. I wonder how many people who got caught up in this mess truly don't understand how objects, homes, etc. are valued?
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
2,193 posts, read 4,451,397 times
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I'd like to add that I took classes in calculus, differential equations, graduated from an engineering school (with A's) and there's that little detail I might have missed too had I been purchasing a home during that time, that 'you can only refinance IF the home values go up.' And honestly even reading so much about this mess, I still don't completely understand how interest rates are tied to home values which are all tied to mortgage backed securities?? I still am trying to figure out what a mortgage backed security is and how the loans start and end. (I actually was thinking about starting a thread on it).

I was talking to my friend a few weeks ago and she's in law school right now. She's a really smart and sharp girl however she doenst know a thing about finances. She had no idea about credit cards and interest rates. And how one late payment causes a person to have a 29% interest rate. For months her and her husband were wondering why they werent paying off their 800 dollar credit card bill. (They were also paying the minimum unfortunately as well). I was shocked that all these years I knew her, and how she's in law school that she didnt know about credit cards!!!!
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