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Old 03-01-2009, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Durham, NC
426 posts, read 1,298,197 times
Reputation: 176

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotleyCrew View Post
Personally, I am sick of this administration as I was of the previous. How about cutting some of the precious gov programs and how about cutting the salaries of the house and senate which just gave themselves a healthy increase? How about the President not throw such lavish parties while Rome burns? We will be taxed out of our homes for the sake of handing out $$ for feel good programs.
That's brilliant! Let's cut jobs! And benefits! Fantastic! That'll stimulate the economy! And cutting salaries? You think that will make any sort of a difference? When you people are drastically opposed to government restrictions on CEO salaries? Laughable. Fine cut salaries. I can't believe you choose to focus on something that petty in the middle of all this.

Actually I can. I'm not surprised. "Maybe if I wave my hands over here really quickly people will get distracted and not realize I've got nothing to offer but they'll leave my precious tax cuts alone!"

Tired ideas and failed ideology.

Unbelievable.

So, let's hear some theoretically or empirically sound ideas for getting out of this crisis. This shouldn't be a matter of personal opinion. Name one economist who really thinks that keeping tax cuts in place (not raising taxes as the right's spin machine would have you believe) is the way out of this.

Last edited by sbanawan; 03-01-2009 at 08:31 AM..
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,569,284 times
Reputation: 7001
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbanawan View Post
Name one economist who really thinks that keeping tax cuts in place (not raising taxes as the right's spin machine would have you believe) is the way out of this.
Make that one credible economist.....someone who is non-partisan.
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,088,527 times
Reputation: 3020
And you really think that the housing crisis will be exacerbated by reducing the mortgage interest deduction?
>> Of course it will. It will increase the number of people unable to make mortgage payments, esp. those in houses already underwater.

Those who are having problems paying aren't paying mortgage interest because they're not paying their mortgages!
>> You are focusing only on one dimension of the crisis. Many more Americans are barely making payments.

All I ever hear from conservatives is "mine! mine! mine!" and no real ideas about how to fix the problem.
>> Why paint this as Dem vs. GOP? Are you insinuating that the Obama tax plan will "save" America? Of course it will not. It does nothing of the sort. Hollywood is spot on.

Now if you believe in redistribution, fine. You got your man. But if the debate is about resolving the credit crisis or reigniting economic growth, this tax plan is a step backwards.

No need to cloud the debate. Call a spade, a spade.
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Durham, NC
426 posts, read 1,298,197 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
And you really think that the housing crisis will be exacerbated by reducing the mortgage interest deduction?
>> Of course it will. It will increase the number of people unable to make mortgage payments, esp. those in houses already underwater.
I call BS on this one. How much are "average" Americans deducting from via the mortgage interest deduction? I don't know, I'm asking. Something tells me its on the order of a few hundred a year or in the tens of dollars a month. Not much at all.
Quote:

>> You are focusing only on one dimension of the crisis. Many more Americans are barely making payments.
Again, this is not going to send a large number of people over the edge. As I see it, this is just hand wringing for "some" non-existent group of people. All of the "high cost" areas (originally "states" by goodbyehollywood but since there are no high cost states, he walked it back to areas) voted overwhelmingly Democratic and have for years.

This straw man argument is absolutely ridiculous. These people you're worried about don't exist!
Quote:
>> Why paint this as Dem vs. GOP?
Because the parties are leagues apart on this issue. The GOP is really the party of "no" and "no ideas" on this.
Quote:
Are you insinuating that the Obama tax plan will "save" America? Of course it will not. It does nothing of the sort. Hollywood is spot on.
It's part of his plan to help America. I'm not making Obama out to be a savior and don't say I am just to cloud the issue. This is a standard "debate" tactic. Ignore the substance of what I'm saying and attack the style. Give me some real numbers that support *anything* a conservative wants to do as good for this type of situation.
Quote:
Now if you believe in redistribution, fine. You got your man.
That favorite boogie man again! Socialist! Redistributor In Chief!!! Gimme a break. Quit with the childish arguments.
Quote:
But if the debate is about resolving the credit crisis or reigniting economic growth, this tax plan is a step backwards.
BS. All the numbers out there support the way the budget is allocated. Stimulus is best made by government spending and not tax cuts. The numbers are out there for everyone to see.
Quote:
No need to cloud the debate. Call a spade, a spade.
I have. I'm calling this line of argument against letting this tax break expire a straw man argument and concern trolling by the Party of No Ideas and those who scream like my 2 year-old does when someone gets near something he thinks is his.

Come back to me with real data and theory to support your claims. And by the way, Obama won. The people have spoken.

Why do you hate democracy?
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Old 03-01-2009, 12:22 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,246,246 times
Reputation: 17979
Lower the interest rate and ower lower the dedcution;no senase at all. Besidesw which his wanting to let bakrusy judges lower values is going to raise risk and raise the rates backup or add a insurance fee.Looks like he is into voodoo lower cost to me. Best look out for lowerinfr some taxes and raising fees more alos;old government trick to hood -wink the voters.
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Old 03-01-2009, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Durham, NC
426 posts, read 1,298,197 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
Lower the interest rate and ower lower the dedcution;no senase at all.
It makes perfect sense if you're on the side of the borrower. Lower interest rates means that they pay less. Lower deduction means that the government gets to keep more in tax revenue. The only entity losing out in this scenario are the banks.

Quote:
Besidesw which his wanting to let bakrusy judges lower values is going to raise risk and raise the rates backup or add a insurance fee.
What? That's completely nonsensical.

Quote:
Looks like he is into voodoo lower cost to me. Best look out for lowerinfr some taxes and raising fees more alos;old government trick to hood -wink the voters.
?? You'll have to translate into english for me to understand what you're saying.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:11 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,246,246 times
Reputation: 17979
He has said he will lower the huge deficit he is crerating with his first term to half. That means that peole need to wtch for things that will effective raise thweir txaes or feess. If if he had a boom like say teh tech bubble during Clintons time at his proposed tax rate on teh rich;that wouldn't do it. He has to get more money some where;even oif he reduces spending as much as reagn did in preograms which isn't like;y with a democratic congress. Its finding wher he gets reductions or moeny from that will be the trick. Reduci9ng housing mortgages deduction is one I have seen floating as well as charity deductions.There will be more that arte much harder to catch.
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,088,527 times
Reputation: 3020
sbanawan,
My. So defensive. Let's try to avoid the sophomorics, shall we?
How much are "average" Americans deducting from via the mortgage interest deduction? I don't know, I'm asking. Something tells me its on the order of a few hundred a year or in the tens of dollars a month. Not much at all.
>> Irrelevant, the 95% of homeowners are fine. However, for the millions that bought houses >2003, the mortgage deductions are worth far more than tens of dollars a month, more like $100-$300/month. Why? Amoritization schedules are frontloaded. This means that the most recent homeowners are receiving great relief from the deductions now. Policy changes to punish these people is backasswards. BTW, if you would shelve your partisanship, you'll note that those in blue states are getting screwed the most. I'll let others consider whether that is poetic justice.

Again, this is not going to send a large number of people over the edge. As I see it, this is just hand wringing for "some" non-existent group of people. All of the "high cost" areas (originally "states" by goodbyehollywood but since there are no high cost states, he walked it back to areas) voted overwhelmingly Democratic and have for years. This straw man argument is absolutely ridiculous. These people you're worried about don't exist!
>> Huh? You seemed to have missed Logic 101 throughout your formative studies. Do your due diligence! The longer the recession is prolonged and more bonehead the policies of Obama the more foreclosures we will see and the more likely we see the credit crisis spread to default on other consumer loans.

Because the parties are leagues apart on this issue. The GOP is really the party of "no" and "no ideas" on this.
>> Once again, you have a naive and narrow view of the world. Logic and sound economics is above the braggards and partisanship of party politics. You preach to the choir that narrows each day. Those who feel Obama's push toward socialism are far more numerous than GOP Dixiecrats (presumably your target). I could give a rat's a$$ about the GOP. But I do care about the US of A.

It's part of his plan to help America.
>> Everybody now. His plan is one for REDISTRIBUTION. Will it help some Americans? Of course. Some. Will it help the middle class, no. Not this plan, at least. Why not? The ills of the middle class are macroeconomic and their inability to explot the global economy. His plan and quite frankly every shred of his rhetoric does nothing. Good money chasing bad. What about economic growth? Here is where the plan really fails. By jacking up taxes, firms will start incorporating overseas and taking jobs and innovation with them. So in the long run, those who might benefit from Obama in the short run will suffer the most. The wealthy always have multiple-options. Bad economics and bad politics. I fear we will see a return to the years of Jimmy Carter. Woe is America.

That favorite boogie man again! Socialist! Redistributor In Chief!!! Gimme a break.
>> Your obliviousness is staggering, though not surprising. Of course it is redistribution. Only a moron would call it something else. Note that it was you who jumped to the defensive. I love the Dems and their world of fantasy. As I counseled, call a spade a spade. It IS socialism. Be proud. Don't get so defensive. Is it not what you want? I don't, but that does not mean that anyone with any sense of history cannot see this for what it is.
>> I am actually glad for Obama. For too long Dems like you wanted it both ways. Well, now we have a true blue social democrat in the European tradition. And I am happy for Obama to get a chance to drive the parties apart. If in a few years the gulf approaches that the gap that existed under Carter, we'll see another 20+ year swing toward the direction of markets and competition. No GOP goon can do this. Only the socialism of the Dems!

BS. All the numbers out there support the way the budget is allocated. Stimulus is best made by government spending and not tax cuts. The numbers are out there for everyone to see.
>> Where on earth did you go to school? Let me guess. You are either a sociology/ communication major from a third-rate Public U. or a guilt-ridden elite (also in a field where intellectual rigour is wanting). Please. At least study Economics 1 before spouting on that the way to prosperity if paved through government spending.
>> As for tax cuts...who is arguing for tax cuts? But tax increases is no way to stimulate growth.
>> Seriously, you are embarrassing yourself. Study microeconomics and the economics of the firm. Study global trends. Nothing in this package will right the ship. Nada. Zip. While it may put a few more $$ into the hands of the lower middle class, it will do nothing to arrest the slide of jobs leaving the US.
>> Let me guess. You have a government job or work for Obama...

Party of No Ideas and those who scream like my 2 year-old does when someone gets near something he thinks is his....Come back to me with real data and theory to support your claims. And by the way, Obama won. The people have spoken...Why do you hate democracy?
>> I think I was premature. You must still be a college student!
>> "Party of (No) ideas?" LOL! What a media sound byte!! Intellectuals do not bother with such tripe. Think!! Open your minds and eyes!
>> Data? What are you talking about? What his plan actually does will be determined going forward. Sorry, princess, this entire debate IS over logic and economic reasoning.
>> As I said, I am glad Obama won. I just wish it did not have to be so painful for so many Americans. America needed the combination of Bush and Obama to wake up and realise the days of post-war windfall are over. Bush-Obama will pave the way for a new generation of bold leaders who can finally think for a change. And NOTHING, will generate the impetus for new blood and thinking than an accelerated slide toward irrelevance and apologism, the path down which Obama is taking us.
>> I look forward to the future when California, Nevada and perhaps even New York will return away from the GOP. With more Obama tax plans and Obamanomics, this is surely the future.

S
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Old 03-01-2009, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Durham, NC
426 posts, read 1,298,197 times
Reputation: 176
The data on the current plan and stimulus shows that government spending has a multiplier effect of around 1.5 - for every dollar spent, 1.50 is returned. For tax cuts, you get from a high of 1.2 to a low of around .5.

That's data and that's from McCain's former advisor Mark Zandi. That's the data I'm talking about. The road to effective stimulus IS paved with government spending. At least that's what Mark Zandi's data says. What about yours?

The data I'd like to see from you, that I don't think you'll be able to produce, is areas where above $250k is middle class and how much a reduction in the mortgage interest deduction will hurt them. You're just pulling numbers out of the air. And dollars to doughnuts those areas will be blue states, you're right. And that's ok because chances are those voters were informed enough to know that voting for Obama was voting for the end of the Bush tax cuts. AND THEY WERE OK WITH THAT.

The data I'd like to see from you is how GOP economic policy is ever good for the economy over the long run. I'd like to see what Reaganomics has wrought on the income of most Americans. Let me give you a hint: most Americans are worse off in the past 30 years than they were under the New Deal policies that have slowly been dismantled by movement conservatives.

For years, poor whites in the south have been voting against their economic interests for social reasons (Nixon's southern strategy). It's worked out well for the GOP. Until the last 2 elections. Now the Dems finally have a good majority in both houses and the president. Now we can see what will happen when the people in charge of the government actually believe it's worth something.

BTW, I love the quick adoption of the CPAC line of tying Obama with Bush. But it didn't work during the election season and it's not going to work now. People know better. Is Obama a socialist or is he a Bushie in disguise?

All that said, give me some numbers to back up your assertions. I have backed up mine. Let's have an adult discussion.
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Durham, NC
426 posts, read 1,298,197 times
Reputation: 176
<crickets chirping>

Where are you conservatives when you get asked for supporting data for your handwringing and cries for the common man?

I'm still waiting to have a discussion illuminated by research and actual numbers.
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