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Old 09-21-2015, 08:58 PM
2,745 posts, read 1,404,970 times
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Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
I admit, I know very little about Harleys (other than that they make some very nice looking bikes). If I understand correctly, the common "big" motor these days has a 103 CI (1690cc) displacement. Just curious-and I haven't found a definitive source-just what kind of HP and torque do they put out? With that kind of displacement-I'd assume quite good.
Harley's are old technology, they keep making the motors bigger so they have more room to de-tune them into an acceptable range for the government. if you want definitive #'s just google them, should come up.

Now, what a stock de-tuned HD is compared to a built badass Harley motor...completely different animals. Like comparing night and day. pro drag racers still build shovelhead and ironhead engines---that's stuff from the 60's thru early 80's. Of course it is not stock, but in the right environment, watch out!

I love HD, but can bash them all day too. They often deserve it. But people bash them for making what their customers want---which is retarded.

Old 09-21-2015, 09:08 PM
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
25,332 posts, read 16,279,731 times
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With regard to the question about a Victory police bike:Victory Police Motorcycles - Engineered for Police Forces
Old 09-21-2015, 11:25 PM
10,868 posts, read 41,128,193 times
Reputation: 14009
Originally Posted by curiousgeorge5 View Post
I would have guessed the EVO engines were good for more than 50,000 miles but I see what you're saying regarding the weight load and electrical demands. I guess a twin cam model like a 103 c.i. would last even less time due to a hotter running bike as a result of a larger air-cooled engine and very lean fueling.

The EVO engine bikes suffered from some very serious design flaws. To name but a few:

1) the very long cylinder head bolts and cylinders have drastically different rates of expansion, resulting in the cylinder base gaskets failing prematurely. The tactic to optimize the time before failure is to always warm the engine up for a couple of minutes at a fast idle. Otherwise, if you start it up, get a throttle response, and drive away, the cylinder is "loose" on the crankcase and blows out the base gasket. There's numerous aftermarket suppliers who claim to have a better engineered/manufactured base gasket than OE HD, and HD has never been able to cure the problem. It's an expensive fix, particularly when the rear cylinder must come off due to the engine tear down required to get enough room to remove that cylinder. This is a fairly common failure point, it starts out as a weep at the cylinder base and usually progresses to a serious leak in very short order. I've got two EVO bikes sitting at my place right now awaiting the resealing and the owners are getting their choice of aftermarket gasket sets for this; both bikes have had this resealing done at least 3 times previously (that the owners know of) by HD dealers and HD aftermarket specialty shops. You can google this problem and come up with numerous aftermarket suppliers to the gasket seeping issue. Typically an $800 repair at the aftermarket shops in my region.

2) the rocker box gaskets are a leak point, too. same deal as the cylinder base gaskets, aftermarket specialty gasket sets purport to do a better job of sealing this area. Typically a repeat failure area on these bikes no matter how they're ridden.

3) Shift arm lever on the shift shaft coming out of the transmission is woefully inadequate to stand up to the forces required to shift the transmission. HD OE lever is no better than the original, so the aftermarket has come up with stronger materials and better clamping designs. Laughable here, this problem has persisted for years and previously required the complete removal of the primary drive case to have enough room to remove/replace the lever. HD's response was not to upgrade the lever, but to redesign the primary case with an indentation to allow the clearance needed to remove the lever without having to remove the primary case. Again, the aftermarket has been making money off of this problem area for many years because HD didn't fix the original poorly designed parts.

4) motor mount failures. Again, look up the aftermarket suppliers to this problem area. The OE mounts simply aren't up to the task for durability and vibration isolation. So the aftermarket has stepped into redesigning and improving a common failure area.

5) Piston/cylinder wear issues. While I don't know the mileage of many of the HD cylinders I bored, I do know that I've spent many an evening with a Kwik-Way Model J boring bar and a custom fabricated 2" thick surface plate to bolt the cylinders to duplicate the mounting torque stresses on the cylinders. The shop I worked for years on the side was a COVMO piston distributor, and these were a very popular replacement forged alloy piston compared to the OE HD pistons. It wasn't uncommon for me to have 6 to 10 cylinders to bore/hone and fit the pistons in two nights per week; we got this work from numerous HD specialty shops for years. Note that I wasn't the only tech doing this work in that shop, it was a part-time job for me to supplement my income with "evening" work, so my workload was only part of the sales the shop was doing each week for years. The COVMO piston ran a closer tolerance and had much better oil control than the OE pistons.

6) The carb'ed EVO engines had woefully inadequate alternator output for police use. IIRC, it was around 180 watts at well above idle RPM to reach peak output. One of the reasons we got an entree into PD sales with a competing line of bikes was because we had a 300 watt electrical output at just above idle.

FWIW as a side note ... an acquaintance of mine built up a twin-engined HD drag bike some years ago. Fed the power to a stock HD trans, and shredded it. Rebuilt it several times with aftermarket parts that were "stronger", still shredded it. I suggested he try an AMC trans out of a Norton Atlas. He then set records with that bike.

IMO, as big and clunky as the HD transmissions were for years compared to the silky smooth shifting of many other manufacturers, their transmissions weren't very robust. And it's pretty typical to hear riders clunking through the gears as they upshift; if I'd heard it once or twice through the years of riding alongside HD's, I think it was a rider error problem or a worn out bike trans. But I hear HD riders upshifting clunks even when I'm in my car near them in city traffic ... and I hear them today when I am at the stoplight and pulling away from the intersection where my local HD dealer is selling new bikes. Yes, I get to hear that clunk on upshifts on bikes pulling out of their parking lot with a new "happy tag" on the license plate holder.

I thought the HD cam drives were an issue that was taken care of fairly quickly.

Primarily in the aftermarket. HD's historical dealership approach to this problem was to "wait and see" if a given bike developed a problem within the warranty time/mileage frame. If it didn't, they got away without fixing the problem unless the owner took it upon themselves to be pro-active about the concern and do the repair at their own cost.

As I live near a major crossroads area on the route to Sturgis (I-25 and I-80), I get to see a fair number of bikes/breakdowns in the area every year. Surprising how many I've stopped to talk to that had concerns with their bikes before leaving on the major trip and HD dealers weren't going to fix anything proactively under warranty. So there's been more than a few guys stuck here in Cheyenne awaiting a cam fix when it failed during their major vacation trip.

There's some interesting YouTube videos posted where shops go through the procedure to install the replacement upgrade parts. The fun ones are the guys who have figured out how to do the job without removing the rocker boxes. They simply cut away the pushrod tubes and pushrods, replacing them with their proprietary parts which can go into an assembled engine. A pretty slick repair, and far superior to the work required by HD OE replacement upgrade parts.

HD selling a defective product (if that's true) means more money for the dealerships.

It's true.

True story: the surgeon uncle of a friend of mine made a mistake some years ago which caused his malpractice insurer to drop his coverage after settling a lawsuit; he also lost his hospital privileges. Since he couldn't practice medicine anymore, he sought other means to a livelihood. Being an HD enthusiast, true-blue dyed in the wool nothing else is a motorcycle, he went to work as a HD tech there in SLC. Got sent to factory training and has worked at this for years now, taking home more money than he did as a surgeon with a one-doc private outpatient practice. The failure rates of HD's are more than enough to bring him the repair work volume that he needs to stay busy.

Locally, an elderly independent shop owner passed away a couple years ago. His son wanted nothing to do with the business. He knew that I'd been around the shop, had inquired about helping out on the Euro bikes ... and that his dad liked me, we'd both been hanging around with the same old timers in the biz back in the 1960's-1970's. The son called me up and asked if I'd give him an offer for the business and take on a lease for the building, keeping the current employees. I got to see the books. The fellow was doing over $17grand per month on HD repairs with two techs that worked ... mostly part time ... on their own schedules each week. I really didn't want to be tied down with a multi-year lease and employees again, so gave him a modest offer which was seriously outbid by two other qualified shop owner/buyers. The fellow who got the shop reluctantly takes in bikes other than HD's; when he bought the place, there was an elderly BMW tech who worked part time but had a stroke soon after the business changed hands.

I'm skeptical current-day BMW Corporate would quickly redesign something flawed.

I'd agree with you on this. My son, riding a 'guzzi Stone, hangs out with a sizable group of BMW riders. He claims that the biggest topic of conversation when they all stop on their rides is the breakdowns/failures of the recent years models of BMW's. Some of the guys carry electrical spares, and some other FI system parts as routine failure items. I'm a fan of the BMW's of yesteryear, with lots of miles on R-50's and -60's, Earles fork models. True, they won't hold a candle to performance and handling/brakes of the more recent models, but in their day they were exceptionally comfortable and durable reliable bikes. It was surprising how much peformance they did achieve on 30 HP bikes which can easily meet my touring requirements today ... although 60+ HP 'guzzi's also work out well for me.

I'm curious of the quality differences between HDs made within the past few or so years compared to the EVO era.

IMO, the quality has gone down on the bikes with so much offshored components in the bikes. Where HD shines in the marketplace is the styling, fit, and finish of their machines ... but these are primarily cosmetic issues. HD has redesigned their bikes with an eye towards production efficiency and maximum profits. One sees the comparo's when you look at the Polaris industries efforts to build competing bikes in the big cruiser V-Twin market; Victory and Polaris appear to have HD beaten when it comes to mechanicals ... and HD is solely responsible for not meeting that level of performance.

As well, look at a number of the HD clone bike builders. Stuff from S&S appears to be wildly popular and better built than HD OE components ... but the basic design is HD engineering. You can look at a number of HD clone bikes where the bike looks like an HD (although radically cosmetically different) but is built up from non-HD parts. A friend was a Bourget dealer for awhile and they bikes were better runners and more durable than HD product ... although the company wasn't a solid as HD and that caused him problems to support his clients.

Why isn't a Sporty going 90 mph as confidence inspiring as a 1960s era Brit, Italian, or German bike? Low quality suspension?

Because it was never designed or intended to be in that marketplace. Essentially, the sporty is the "entry level" HD and it cannot be allowed to perform with the upline HD bikes. The marketing strategy was to get 'em in the door, buy a HD bike, and then ... when they had some experience and more money, trade them up to the "real" bikes of the product line.

You can read on this forum where HD enthusiasts bought sportys and then spent many dollars trying to make the ergonomics comfortable and the handling improved to match the power of the engine. Some of those posters were candid enough to admit that after spending many thousands of dollars to make the bike an acceptable ride for anything more than short around town jaunts, they weren't able to reach their goal

Case in point: one of the softails I have here now for extended storage (ie, the owner is taking a couple year enforced vacation courtesy of the state legal system) and my riding use to keep it in operating condition is owned by a fellow who also owns a sporty. He bought the sporty for his wife to ride, and she didn't like riding it (I think she's got a Yamaha Royale she rides now). He kept the sporty and used it for bar hopping afternoons around town with his buddies. But he refuses to ride the sporty 34 miles to my place because it's too uncomfortable for him; he'll only ride the softy ... well it will be a few years before he'll be riding either one again.

OTOH, the 1960's euro top line bikes were built specifically to be able to do "the ton" when it came to handling. The top performers had exemplary handling derived from their road racing stablemates. Velocette, Triumph, BSA, Norton, Matchless, Royal Enfield, Ariel, (just to name a few of the more familiar marques) all had 500 cc track bikes which had years worth of development once swing arm frames became the industry standard. 'guzzi and ducati, similarly so in their track bikes (and they had a host of similar handling/performing bikes ... MV Augusta's, Aermacchi's, among many others). BMW and Zundapp had excellent performing/handling track bikes (keep in mind that BMW held many sidecar wins for years), and bikes like Sachs weren't slugs, either.

The european marketplace held a premium for getting maximum performance out of much smaller displacements (due to fuel economy issues and prohibitively expensive taxation on larger displacements, such as was also mirrored in the cars taxation schedules). Hence, better roadholding, control, frame and suspension geometry. The first rides I got on a Norton Manx, or a G-50 Matchless, or a BSA Goldstar were incredibly impressive. Frankly, they were better handling bikes then I was ever a rider on the track. Take their superb handling and fit them out in road trim with 500-650-750 cc road tuned engines with decent transmissions and they were sweethearts to ride at high speeds. Even my corporate melded bike, a Matchless G-15 CSR ... a combination of Matchless's frame with a Norton 750CC twin in it ... was a superb handling bike at 100 mph on street tires; with Dunstall performance bits and pieces, it was a street killer bike and an amazing track machine with a set of Blue Streaks on it. Absolutely effortless to ride through the Colorado mountain twisties of 30-35 mph posted roads at 60 mph from turn to turn without any concern or ruffled behavior, it was a marvelous successor to the Norton Atlas (whose Featherbed frame was a direct spin-on from the Manx racers). With minimal effort, one could ride significantly faster than this on these twisties, but in the interests of keeping my license clean and insurance rates intact, I rarely pushed beyond that point after one day when a HP timed me from a point and got an arrival time from the local deputy when I'd reached the town ahead. I was stopped and ticketed for speeding based upon their observed elapsed timing for the road; probably not the first time they'd busted somebody this way. The judge wasn't swayed by my protestations that I hadn't actually been "clocked" by an observer, he accepted the timing from the two officers. It was an expensive 30 minute ride that day for the fun I had.

Startling, too, is the handling of even the 250cc euro bikes. Get on a Bultaco Metralla, or a Ducati Mach 1, or a Royal Enfield 250 Continental GT Clipper, or an MV Augusta of the 1960's-1970's. These bikes take turns like they're on rails, and track true at their maximum speeds (close to the 100 mph mark). Unlike a sporty which tends to "wander" in stock trim at around 80 mph ... please, don't take my word for it, read the road tests from the American cycling press which was historically highly biased in favor of HD products. For them to write up a concern about pressing these bikes at this speed was particularly revealing as to the shortcomings of these machines. HD's response was to not "fix" the sporty, but to partner up with Buell (probably one of their better efforts in many aspects as a bike, but it didn't fit well or complement their sales as it was intended to do). Oft times, pushing a 250cc bike to it's limits can be more fun than a big bore bike where the speed and power is easily on tap.

As well, I ride now and then with a couple of guys who ride HD's from one of their houses with an uphill, off-camber driveway entrance onto a twisty private subdivision roadway. Every time we start our rides, the HD's must swing wide, slowly, to enter the street and make the immediate tight turn. Why? because they'll drag their stuff every time if they don't ... meanwhile, the Duc or 'guzzi I ride these days is long gone, having made the shortest arc out of the driveway and onto the street. And I make a point of not pushing it, I don't want to embarrass the guys by pushing it when I don't have to in those situations.

Perhaps Victory can snag some police department business in the future.
Perhaps. They've got a higher USA manufactured component percentage than HD and are coming across as a better engineered/manufactured bike ... although styling seems to be a concern. Dealer network support also lags HD, and that's a big component of the RFP's I've seen.

Note, too, that one still sees descriptions about the HD purchases by PD's, such as NYPD's recent multi-million HD fleet purchase headlined as "NYPD, which traditionally uses HD motorcycles, is buying a 100 machines to replace aging bikes in the current fleet". What pervades the bidding/buying process is that "tradition" and it's not uncommon to see the RFP's written as as sole source item or so closely written around the HD product line that no other bike can bid and meet the requirements.

When one looks at the world market for police department bikes, one sees several other marques in widespread use for similar purposes to USA riders.

PS: again, none of my comments are construed to be "hatred" for HD. Rather, they're my observations about a product which I've seen repeatedly demonstrated to have serious flaws as a machine in the marketplace over the last 5 decades. For my purposes, and from my experience, I've seen other machines do a better job than HD in many facets of PD work. I got to see hundreds of bike reports documented by the PD's and the riders and the bean counters, it's not a small sampling. In any event, there's bikes I like for various purposes and bikes I don't. For me, HD doesn't make anything that fulfills my motorcycling habit. YMMV.

Buy what you like, enjoy, and ride. Have fun and keep the dirty side down. And if HD is the ticket to your happiness, buy it and ride it, it's your dough.

In the meantime for me, the softy I've got the use of for the next few years will see the light of day for only a few miles per year until it's owner returns. He, of course, wouldn't think of putting a leg over the saddle of any other brand of bike. And he thought it was a magnificent gesture on his part to offer to allow me to ride his pride and joy HD, so he couldn't comprehend my indifference to riding his bike. Frankly, after fixing the cylinder base gasket leaks and electrical item failures on this bike, I don't want to be the one riding it when it fails again. I'll leave that to him.

PPS: please note we haven't even broached the subject of those many fine big-bore Japanese bikes that are in the marketplace that will also take a HD to task on any aspect you'd care to consider/evaluate. At a much lower price point than an HD, I submit that many of these bikes don't have the design/manufacturing flaws of an HD product, will out handle, out accelerate, out brake, and do it without leaking oil to mark it's territory. Well, they don't have the styling, the chrome, and the panache of a HD, so I guess they could be considered inferior on that score.

True, too, we've left out the latest big bore offerings from other marques. I can't say how they'd hold up in PD work, but when you're approaching two liter bikes it's hard to stress them very much in normal use. That's a lot of HP and torque to have on tap ... way more than I'd ever need or want to have, these bikes have got more pony power than a bunch of my favorite sporting cars which have proven to be very durable machines (love my BMW 2002's and have fond thoughts still of my 1600's).

Last edited by sunsprit; 09-22-2015 at 12:11 AM..
Old 09-22-2015, 06:54 AM
2,073 posts, read 3,676,774 times
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Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
I have to question really why any PD would buy HDs? Not to knock the bike as such, they are pretty. But is a air-cooled engine a decent choice for any bike that spends considerable time idling and in slow speed operation in HOT weather? Seems like most any water-cooled bike would do better. In addition, a HD (and many other cruisers) don't have the HP to run down much of anything in the line of even remotely performance oriented cars, let alone other bikes. I would think any sport tourer (except maybe the FJR due to chain drive) or a BMW touring bike or a Gold Wing would be a better fit. More power, better cooling systems, more storage space, more comfort.

Honestly though...it pains me to say this as a performance oriented guy, but on the street, there is such a thing as ENOUGH. How many riders have the skill to utilize a 180hp, 480lb sport bike to anywhere near it's full potential? And how many kids that bought one didn't live long enough to get it home from the dealership? Even more so, how often can you use even a fraction of most bike's potential and keep your license? I have to admit, that's why my real love is ADV bikes. There aren't nearly as many cops, or cages, on dirt roads in the national forest. The big law to worry about there is gravity.

Given the skill level of the average rider, 100hp or even less is probably pretty darned reasonable.
FJR is shaft. I think some PD's in Japan use them.

It does make sense that the PD's don't care about power output much. They aren't going to chase someone down at 150mph on a bike. Way too dangerous for the officer.

The San Francisco PD uses DRZ400's. Those make so much sense as police bikes. Easy to lane split, can go anywhere. I'm surprised the NYPD still rides the big HDs.
Old 09-22-2015, 08:50 AM
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
25,332 posts, read 16,279,731 times
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Originally Posted by johnnytang24 View Post
FJR is shaft. I think some PD's in Japan use them.

It does make sense that the PD's don't care about power output much. They aren't going to chase someone down at 150mph on a bike. Way too dangerous for the officer.

The San Francisco PD uses DRZ400's. Those make so much sense as police bikes. Easy to lane split, can go anywhere. I'm surprised the NYPD still rides the big HDs.
Thank you for the correction on the FJR. For some reason I thought I recalled it being chain. Senior moment I guess.
Old 09-22-2015, 09:56 AM
9,290 posts, read 11,138,237 times
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Originally Posted by thunderkat59 View Post
HD builds to reliability. There is no other aircooled bike in the world that can take what an HD lump can in extreme conditions, like idling for a long time on the side of the road or traffic jams, etc. Thats why a lot of Police Departments use them. My FXST could chug around town at walking speed in third gear, makes it very easy to ride without shifting all the time. My 883 Sportster on the other hand, would get 'beaten' by a Burgman 400 up until 90, but the HP on the average Sportster is matched well for the bias belt tires and single disc front brake that come stock.
Most of what you type may be true but the Police Dept's use them because of the aggressive sales/leasing programs they offer. Some departments get to use bikes for the year for almost nothing, then HD resells the bikes to the public at a premium!
Old 09-22-2015, 10:54 AM
3,464 posts, read 4,299,109 times
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Originally Posted by City Guy997S View Post
Most of what you type may be true but the Police Dept's use them because of the aggressive sales/leasing programs they offer. Some departments get to use bikes for the year for almost nothing, then HD resells the bikes to the public at a premium!
I said I wasn't going to comment further, but, I lied, ha ha
LAPD is using them too, after BMW's and Kawi's. HD listened to LAPD's concerns and fixed a lot of stuff.
Having been involved in local politics, I do not believe cities buy/lease HD's based on jingo'st, "Merika first" type stuff. There are many, many things to consider. People do numbers. The stuff you mention is definitely a factor. There are reasons why bikes are chosen. But in the end, the one that costs the city the least is the one the PD is going to ride. That said, a friend of mine has an ex-PD from PA, he won in a raffle. That bike has gone around the country a few times. Solid as an iron ingot. I had two Harley's I have a BMW now. If you look at internet stuff, it looks like BMW's will leave you stranded on every ride. So, I did a little experiment: I took stuff I saw people write about BMW's on the internet and substituted various bikes, i.e; "Transmission problems, Kawasaki ZX-9", "Ignition problem, Yamaha 750". Every time, without exception, I got pages of google that of people who had those same issues with their bikes. My scientific conclusion is that people base their own conclusions on whatever info they choose to believe -lol
Life is short, ride whatever floats yer boat at the moment . . .
Old 09-22-2015, 11:28 AM
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HD's program of selling to police, post offices, etc goes waaay back. They had a guy (i think just a guy not a whole dept) that went around the world as far back as I think the late teens ie 1915, selling to only governments.

All those sales and contracts were part of what kept HD going when Indian went down in '53. Indian had not pursued those areas of sales like HD did.
Old 09-22-2015, 12:34 PM
Location: Sandpoint, ID
3,110 posts, read 9,151,453 times
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Our department has used Harleys, Kawis, and BMWs. The biggest problem with the Harleys is they take SO long to get up to speed compared to the others. The good side is the Harleys have really exceptional low speed handling because the center of gravity is SO low. More and more guys I know are choosing NOT to ride the Harleys on traffic duty. Just too slow.
Old 09-22-2015, 01:15 PM
3,464 posts, read 4,299,109 times
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Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle View Post
Our department has used Harleys, Kawis, and BMWs. The biggest problem with the Harleys is they take SO long to get up to speed compared to the others. The good side is the Harleys have really exceptional low speed handling because the center of gravity is SO low. More and more guys I know are choosing NOT to ride the Harleys on traffic duty. Just too slow.
But that is just another byproduct of what has been mentioned previously: Giving people what they want.
When I mentioned "police bike" a while back, I had no idea it would go in this direction. My point was supposed to be, that what people think is antiquated, really has more engineering in it than they might think. They(HD) are aware of what the average HD owner wants~ And that is something antiquated. A guy who can afford a 20k motorcycle makes a choice not to go Japanese high-tech. Harley haters just cannot grasp that lots of people are not fans of sterile, nu-tech. To say newer Harleys leak and stuff like that is simply not the truth. Its ironic that the only people who say this stuff are people who don't own them. Go figure. Also funny is when metric Kruiser guys offer the obligatory "Its better than a Harley" apology when you ask them what they are riding, lol.
That said, I would never take a Harley to a dealer to be serviced. Im sure good service is out there, but like leaky bikes, Ive just never seen em. Harley lost me about 8 years ago when they dropped iconic bikes like the FXST and started with all these "special edition" things that are a mish-mash of left-over parts with crazy paint on them. I don't know who they are trying to attract with the new stuff. Too bad.
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