How much HP and torque do Harley's make? (Harley-Davidson, Victory, ride)

[Toyman at Jewel Lake]

I admit, I know very little about Harleys (other than that they make some very nice looking bikes). If I understand correctly, the common "big" motor these days has a 103 CI (1690cc) displacement. Just curious-and I haven't found a definitive source-just what kind of HP and torque do they put out? With that kind of displacement-I'd assume quite good.

[Sage of Sagle]

It's not nearly as good as Japanese bikes.

2015 Harley-Davidson FXDB Street Bob 103" motor, Stage 1 Screamin Eagle Air Filter, Thunder header 2 into 1 exhaust. (so some mods but not dramatic):
Horsepower: 85
Torque 108.3 ft/lb

Stock Harley Fat Bob:
HP: 64
TQ: 85.5

Yamaha V-Star 1600:
HP: 64.6
TQ: 134

2014 Indian Chief (the new Polaris-built motor):
HP: 73.3
TQ: 100.9

Victory Vegas
HP: 72.6
TQ 93.9

Suzuki M90 (1462cc)
HP: 77
TQ: 93


These were all pulled from actual dyno charts I could find on Google...not my own dyno tests....

So it seems like a stock Harley needs "help" to get the power numbers up to where Indian, Victory, and Japanese makers are when stock. My 1200 Sporty (with Screamin Eagle kit) supposedly makes something like 72hp/77tq compared to stock at 57hp/61tq.

[Gungnir]

Yeah, if you want big numbers, Ducati are pretty good in a V-twin, the 1199 Panigale S pushes 171.8hp and 86.4lb-ft from a 1200cc motor, the homologation R version increases that to 202hp and 100lb-ft torque.

Of course there are smaller 4 bangers in Japanese motorcycles that spank Harleys all day long too, normally aspirated things like the Honda 998cc in he CBR1000RR pushes 171hp and 78 lb-ft isn't unusual, and the Kawasaki supercharged Ninja's come in two flavors (road legal and not) road legal is another 998cc and 200hp/98.5lb-ft and the non-road legal (with the same engine, just changes to exhaust, CHG, boost pressure, and cams) 310hp/115.5lb-ft.

So in the motorcycling world Harleys are pretty low on the list for power output.

[Blondebaerde]

Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle

It's not nearly as good as Japanese bikes.

2015 Harley-Davidson FXDB Street Bob 103" motor, Stage 1 Screamin Eagle Air Filter, Thunder header 2 into 1 exhaust. (so some mods but not dramatic):
Horsepower: 85
Torque 108.3 ft/lb

(snip)

These were all pulled from actual dyno charts I could find on Google...not my own dyno tests....

So it seems like a stock Harley needs "help" to get the power numbers up to where Indian, Victory, and Japanese makers are when stock. My 1200 Sporty (with Screamin Eagle kit) supposedly makes something like 72hp/77tq compared to stock at 57hp/61tq.

Hmm. Big difference between wheel horsepower and brake horsepower, if actually comparing vehicle X with Y. BHP is not terribly useful, in my view, given it doesn't measure what is/is not lost in the drivetrain before putting power actually to ground. If that is what is being quoted.

Helps immensely to have the same dyno, same atmospheric conditions, etc. testing bike vs. bike. Which is why dyno days at motorcycle events can be quite amusing: comparing vehicles there actually indicates which has "more" in some quasi-objective fashion. Not that things would be quite the same on the same bike, different day, however.

I remember back fifteen years ago, nearly, my 1999 Honda Blackbird came up with something like 135, 137, and 139 on three successful yearly runs. At least it was consistent with itself, year over year. The numbers themselves are not terribly telling without comparing to something else (also at the wheel).

Putting major miles on a 2015 BMW R1200 GS recently, it is "fast" for a twin cylinder literbike, when the "Dynamic" ESA mode is selected. In a slightly different way, my 2014 Ducati Multistrada S Pike's Peak is "fast-er" when I put it in *Gimme all you Got, Scotty* electronic mode, too. Literbikes, twins in this case, are about both torque and horsepower, but I find it all a bit too subjective to toss absolute numbers around.

It is indeed interesting someone would create a motorcycle that needs significant power help right off the showroom floor, in the Twenty First Century..

[Sage of Sagle]

Originally Posted by Blondebaerde

Helps immensely to have the same dyno, same atmospheric conditions, etc. testing bike vs. bike. Which is why dyno days at motorcycle events can be quite amusing: comparing vehicles there actually indicates which has "more" in some quasi-objective fashion. Not that things would be quite the same on the same bike, different day, however.

I completely agree that two dyno tuners can produce very different results.

However, I tried to pull dyno information from magazine reviews where they were comparing multiple bikes side by side, or from independent dyno runs that were at least of stock bikes, prior to the mods.

So what I pulled isn't meant to be some definitive statement...just trying to pull some "low hanging fruit" data to help...

[sunsprit]

It's all about marketing and dealer profits out the door ...

while stock H-D HP and performance is "adequate" for the intended use for a lot of their buyers, H-D offers the upgrades right off the dealer floor. Same thing for all the mods/alterations/accessories available under the dealer's roof.

A few years ago, I looked into a sales job at the local H-D dealership (one of a multi-outlet). The owner/managers were all from the used car lot biz background, and a very structured (high) pressure sales organization. They explained their sales "process" to me, and it was quite a game. Essentially, the "salesman's" job was to do nothing but get the buyer's basic "4-square" information down on paper with the contact information (name, address, phone number, possible trade bike). The sales price was fixed at the MSRP, there was no variation allowed on that. With that info in hand, the salesman was required to "turn over" the deal to their manager/closer to get the bike deal put together.

But then the fun began. The customer would not get to a bottom line and sign a deal at that point. They were "walked" to the accessory department where all the items were pushed ... chrome trim, polished parts, different wheels, etc.. Then they were "walked" to the clothing department where all the H-D branded merchandise was pushed; after all, you simply can't be a H-D rider without ya' got the H-D leathers and footwear and underwear and branded shirts and gloves. Then you got "walked" to the "customizer" who pushed custom paint jobs, pinstriping, etc.. Finally, you got "walked" to the service department sales manager who upsold the performance stuff ... Screamin' Eagle HP upgrades right off the bat. Then, and only then, you got walked to their F&I department where the items were all tallied up and again got the hard sell to finance it all with a minimal down payment.

In the several hours I was there for a prelim interview (and was called back for the next round with one of the owners), I watched the process in action. Most buyers only wanted to know "how much down" and "how much per month" to ride out the door. Kinda' funny watching somebody buy a $20,000 scoot and add $6-10,000 in additional stuff from the H-D dealer profit center. The owner told me that the average "upsell" per bike was over $4,000 in very high profit margin items and it all got rolled into the financed amount.


The bottom line is that H-D dealers (and the manufacturer) don't regard their bike as built as their "finished" product to sell. It's merely a sales starting point, and HP upgrades are a big profit center to them. A very different sales tactic compared to many other bikes; consider that the "stock" H-D HP isn't what a lot of H-D riders actually are riding on the road with all the performance upgrades sold with each new bike or retrofitted sometime afterward from the off the shelf dealer stuff or all the aftermarket improvements to the bikes.

[Toyman at Jewel Lake]

Sage, thank you for doing the research and posting that. I didn't appreciate just how low some of the HP numbers from those big bikes were. Gives some substance to a meme I saw the other day:

"Harley-Davidson: The world's most efficient tool for converting gasoline into noise, without the side effect of horsepower".

At <70hp...I guess there is something to that. Still, they make a beautiful bike. But I think I'll keep my Rocket III.

[thunderkat59]

HD builds to reliability. There is no other aircooled bike in the world that can take what an HD lump can in extreme conditions, like idling for a long time on the side of the road or traffic jams, etc. Thats why a lot of Police Departments use them. My FXST could chug around town at walking speed in third gear, makes it very easy to ride without shifting all the time. My 883 Sportster on the other hand, would get 'beaten' by a Burgman 400 up until 90, but the HP on the average Sportster is matched well for the bias belt tires and single disc front brake that come stock.

[Sage of Sagle]

Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake

Sage, thank you for doing the research and posting that. I didn't appreciate just how low some of the HP numbers from those big bikes were. Gives some substance to a meme I saw the other day:

"Harley-Davidson: The world's most efficient tool for converting gasoline into noise, without the side effect of horsepower".

At <70hp...I guess there is something to that. Still, they make a beautiful bike. But I think I'll keep my Rocket III.

I also love that quote.

Look...I've been a hardcore sportbike guy for 30 years. I used to be one of those guys who poked fun of guys on their Harleys since they (especially back then) were terribly unreliable bikes.

However, after getting into Ducatis and owning several (and working on them) I came to have more of an appreciation for a bike that you buy for its looks, character, and sound/feel, yet you know you may not always get home. This softened me toward Harleys.

Another step in that direction was that the last Ducati I owned was one of their superbikes, which was great fun when going really fast, but terrible for anything else, and a torture rack for my back and knees.

So I now own a Harley (as well as a Japanese ADV bike and a UTV), but I can be honest with myself that I love my Harley for what it is...not because it's the best power-to-weight ratio bike, or quick in corners, but it sounds fantastic and looks great, and the Sportster engines are actually very reliable (they don't suffer the notorious twin-cam motor cam chain failures).

Also, with regard to the "Harley posers"...we can all look at the people who buy their new Harley, then load it with $5k in dealer-added accessories, and another $2k in branded clothing...but I knew Ducati guys who were the same way. I have come to the viewpoint where as long as people get out and ride, I think it's all good. There are riders and there are non-riders. We riders need to go a bit easier on each other than we often do.

[Roaddog]

I had a Harley Low Rider for a short time in the early 80's and although the HP numbers are low the bike ran well and had plenty of power, the only issue it ever had was the check valve in the oil tank failed and drained all the oil into the crankcase.