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Old 07-04-2011, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Texas
42,203 posts, read 49,740,662 times
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Lol!
Great posts. Reps all around.

Yes, I thought it was a foregone conclusion that Palpatine faked being defeated by Windu in order to get Annakin to make his final turn towards his side.

I like the idea that Annakin hated the two choices before him (on how to approach his relationship with The Force), but he chose the side he thought would bring him closer to the people he loved; Luke, however, was able to carve out his own ideas on how to relate to and use his powers. To be fair, that may be because he was operating in a Jedi-free environment - there was little pressure to do it any other way than the way he wanted to.

Completely agree - death of Palpatine at the end was kind of lame and made very little sense given all the brilliant moves he had made for the decades prior to that.
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Old 07-04-2011, 03:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post


I think you're being overly generous in thinking Lucas had a "clear vision" even with the first two movies. I think he had a vague outline and direction he wanted to go, then made the rest up as he went along. And a lot changed as he went along.

For example, the whole thing about Leia being Luke's sister wasn't thought up until far into the RotJ production process. The whole "there is another" line from Empire was always intended to be Luke's sister, but it was originally intended to be a new character, not Leia, which is why there was so much Luke/Leia lip-smacking going on in the first two movies.

This new character later morphed into the character of Mara Jade in the SW novels.
Which would have made more sense... Considering that: a) "The other" that Yoda is talking about is revealed to be Leia in ROTJ, however if she's the only other hope besides Luke, how come he just tried to convince Luke not to go save her on Cloud City and leave her to her death. b) The line doesn't make sense after the scenes in Revenge of the Sith, since Obi-Wan knows that Luke and Leia are brother and sister because he was present at their birth.

Anyhow, I'll stop there before I start sounding like the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons. I love Star Wars, but I totally agree that you can't read too much into the plotlines that Lucas created. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were originally meant to be two different people, Leia wasn't Luke's sister, there was a proposed dark ending to ROTJ where Han Solo would die and Luke ended up on his own and so on.

Great films(at least 4 out of 6 of them), but I think Lucas made Star Wars and then sort of just came up with this idea that he'd make 6 or 9 films total and sort of added stuff on...
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Old 07-04-2011, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by Deezus View Post
Which would have made more sense... Considering that: a) "The other" that Yoda is talking about is revealed to be Leia in ROTJ, however if she's the only other hope besides Luke, how come he just tried to convince Luke not to go save her on Cloud City and leave her to her death. b) The line doesn't make sense after the scenes in Revenge of the Sith, since Obi-Wan knows that Luke and Leia are brother and sister because he was present at their birth.

Anyhow, I'll stop there before I start sounding like the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons. I love Star Wars, but I totally agree that you can't read too much into the plotlines that Lucas created. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were originally meant to be two different people, Leia wasn't Luke's sister, there was a proposed dark ending to ROTJ where Han Solo would die and Luke ended up on his own and so on.

Great films(at least 4 out of 6 of them), but I think Lucas made Star Wars and then sort of just came up with this idea that he'd make 6 or 9 films total and sort of added stuff on...
Um, I don't know that Yoda was asking Luke to leave her to die...maybe he knew she'd be fine on her own.

The 'there is another' line can be explained away if you take into account that not all children in a family are force sensitive.
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Sure he was. His battle with Mace Windu left him a battered, broken old man.
Not so broken that he couldn't duel Yoda to a standstill( some would argue won). That was after the fight with Mace. With that in mind, I can't see the Windu battle from 20 years ago having any effect on how he meets his demise at the end of Return of the Jedi. Perhaps you could make the case that he was caught off-guard, but I can't buy the 'he was a broken,battered man' argument on that one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post

I think you're being overly generous in thinking Lucas had a "clear vision" even with the first two movies. I think he had a vague outline and direction he wanted to go, then made the rest up as he went along. And a lot changed as he went along.
Star Wars, the original, was created as a standalone movie. Lucas had no idea how his movie would be received. While, as you say, he had a vague outline and direction, the movie was created to be a self-contained story. Darth Vader was not supposed to be Luke's father, and as you mentioned Leia being his sister was a last minute brain fart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Lol!


Yes, I thought it was a foregone conclusion that Palpatine faked being defeated by Windu in order to get Annakin to make his final turn towards his side.
Not really, it's been a point of debate since the movie released whether Mace legitimately took out Palpatine, or if Palpatine 'allowed' himself to be beaten in order to gain Anakin's sympathy( playing on Anakin's mixed feelings about the Jedi Order, as well as seeing Palpatine as the key to saving Padme's wife). It could be that Mace really did 'beat' him as far as when he kicked him to the ground, but Palpatine may have sensed Anakin's conflict and decided to play the victim role when he was in the position of vulnerability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezus View Post

b) The line doesn't make sense after the scenes in Revenge of the Sith, since Obi-Wan knows that Luke and Leia are brother and sister because he was present at their birth.
It's possible that since Obi-wan wasn't around Leia growing up( as she was separated from Luke at birth of course) that he didn't see her as a possible threat to the empire. Then again, force users are supposed to be able to 'detect' the force in others, so it would raise the question of why Obi-wan didn't sense the force in Leia the same way Vader sensed it in Luke.

"The force is strong with this one."

Last edited by Roman77; 07-04-2011 at 05:30 PM..
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post

The 'there is another' line can be explained away if you take into account that not all children in a family are force sensitive.
Which wouldn't have applied to Leia, though. As we saw in ESB when she was able to telepathically communicate with Luke when he was hanging outside Cloud City, she was shown then to be force-sensitive, and able to tap into it on some level, if only subconsciously. Considering that Obi-wan was in the room during the Twins' birth, he certainly should have known that Leia represented 'another' hope along with her brother.
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post



Not really, it's been a point of debate since the movie released whether Mace legitimately took out Palpatine, or if Palpatine 'allowed' himself to be beaten in order to gain Anakin's sympathy( playing on Anakin's mixed feelings about the Jedi Order, as well as seeing Palpatine as the key to saving Padme's wife). It could be that Mace really did 'beat' him as far as when he kicked him to the ground, but Palpatine may have sensed Anakin's conflict and decided to play the victim role when he was in the position of vulnerability.



."
Maybe I don't remember it being a point of debate because it's addressed in one of the books...I get the books and the movies all running together bc I've read everything I can from that time period (way more interesting than post-Empire stuff).

I thought kids didn't demonstrate force sensitivity until AFTER they were a couple of years old (also addressed in novels)...so both babies would have passed under Obiwan's nose and he wouldn't have been able to tell until later, when he could detect it in Luke (older).
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Old 07-05-2011, 04:36 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Maybe I don't remember it being a point of debate because it's addressed in one of the books...I get the books and the movies all running together bc I've read everything I can from that time period (way more interesting than post-Empire stuff).

I thought kids didn't demonstrate force sensitivity until AFTER they were a couple of years old (also addressed in novels)...so both babies would have passed under Obiwan's nose and he wouldn't have been able to tell until later, when he could detect it in Luke (older).
Haven't read the books. That being said, I was always under the impression that Palpatine 'allowed' himself to lose, mainly off what I saw in the movie.

Never heard about the force sensitivity thing until a few years old, again not having read the books. Of course that's all expanded universe so I'm not sure if it's considered 'canon' or not, as they say....
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Old 07-05-2011, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Vader was physically stronger than the Emperor due to his cybernetic body, but not as strong in the Force as his master.
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Old 07-05-2011, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Anakin had the most potential in terms of force power, he just never got to fully realize that potential.
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
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My Revan in KOTOR would have kicked Palpy's, Darth's, Yoda's and Luke's trash all at the same time. The force was with me.
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