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Old 07-03-2011, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Texas
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I love the movies and have read a lot of the novels, but I figure most people are movie folk, so I will put this question in this subforum.

ROTJ is on right now, and Vader has just thrown the Emperor down one of those ubiquitous deep shaft holes that imperil so many of the characters in these movies. (OSHA would have a field day with these guys.)

Luke was getting the living bejeesus zapped out of him, and Vader was lying injured just moments before.

If Vader hadn't stepped in, Luke woulda been roasted weenie.

So does this mean (and forgive me if this has been discussed ad nauseum and the answer is already agreed upon) that the Emperor is the most powerful wielder of The Force in the galaxy? He was beating the crap out of Luke, who had just beated the crap out of Vader...
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:28 PM
 
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My vote is yes, The Emperor is the most powerful wielder of The Force in the galaxy....
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Texas
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I don't know how you can say 'defeated by' and then 'probably the most powerful' about the same person, though...
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Old 07-04-2011, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Earth
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I think Luke goes on to be considered the most powerful force user, at least in the EU( expanded universe). You have to consider that he was still a rookie Jedi in that movie, so while his raw power in the force may have been enough for Vader, it wasn't for the emperor. But looking at the 6 part series in retrospect now, I have the following comments:

1) Anakin was supposed to have the most force power because of the midiclorian count( that BS they came up with in the Phantom menace, and never heard about again funny enough). But Anakin's superiority wasn't that well-shown in the grand scheme of it all.

2) Considering Yoda had faced the emperor and knew about his lightning attacks, you'd figured he'd have taught Luke how to combat it( as he did in Revenge of the Sith). But judging by the end of the Return of the Jedi, Luke obviously had no knowledge of this darkside power, or at least hadn't been taught to repel it.

3) When you really think about how Palpatine was shown throughout the series, the way he died at the end was pretty cheap.
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Old 07-04-2011, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Maine
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Anakin/Vader was the most powerful wielder of the Force. Palpatine was powerful, but not as powerful as Vader. Palpatine was able to manipulate Vader because Vader was basically a good guy whose choices damned his soul. Palpatine's true power was in his Machiavellian cunning. Palpatine was never the most powerful guy in the room (even Mace Windu took him down). But Palpatine was usually the smartest guy in the room.

Luke is the opposite of Palpatine. His great power is not in his use of the Force, but his compassion. It's his compassion that saves his father, and his willingness to lay down his own life for another.
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Anakin/Vader was the most powerful wielder of the Force. Palpatine was powerful, but not as powerful as Vader. Palpatine was able to manipulate Vader because Vader was basically a good guy whose choices damned his soul. Palpatine's true power was in his Machiavellian cunning. Palpatine was never the most powerful guy in the room (even Mace Windu took him down). But Palpatine was usually the smartest guy in the room.
Yes Anakin was supposed to be the most powerful, though I'd say it wasn't really shown that way on-film. I think it's more accurate to say he had the most potential, but he never fully realized it before turning to the darkside, specifically because he wound up a cyborg. This is why the Emperor was so eager to replace him with Luke, as he saw Luke as potentially what his father should have been. Only, Luke's will was much stronger than Anakin's was.

There's a theory running around that Palpatine deliberately succumbed to Mace, sensing Anakin's conflicting emotions and as you said, manipulating those emotions into Anakin turning on Windu and the Jedi order.
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
This is why the Emperor was so eager to replace him with Luke, as he saw Luke as potentially what his father should have been.
It wasn't a matter of who was the most powerful. It was simply Palpatine protecting his best interests. The way of the Sith is for there always to be a master and an apprenctice. Once the apprentice is ready, he kills his master and chooses his own apprentice.

In Empire, you can see this is exactly what Vader intends with Luke. He wants Luke to join him so that they can take down the Emperor "and rule the galaxy as father and son."

Palpatine is no idiot. He knows this is what Vader is up to. Which is why in Jedi, he orders Luke to kill his father and take his place.


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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Only, Luke's will was much stronger than Anakin's was.
I don't see it as a matter of will so much as a matter of choosing love over force. To get what he wanted (even if it was only to help, at first) Anakin was willing to force others, which led to his downfall. When others wouldn't do what he wanted, he tried to make them do what he wanted. Luke sees the evil in that. It is better to die for another, even for an enemy, than to bend him to your will. It's that sacrificial love that brings about Vader's redemption and the Emperor's defeat.

Which is ironic, since that is completely the opposite of what Yoda and Obi-Wan keep telling him to do. Luke, in choosing sacrifice, represents a truly new kind of Jedi.

The philosophy of the "classic" Jedi is really kind of horrific. I really can't fault Anakin too much for rejecting it. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan keep telling him to "forego attachments" and let people die rather than try to save them. Anakin rejects that (justifiably, I think) but chooses the evil way of trying to save them by any means necessary. And Yoda still doesn't get it. He's still feeding Luke the same nonsense in Empire Strikes Back.

Luke, on the other hand, makes the correct decision. He doesn't embrace the folly of the Jedi by refusing to commit to helping others. He doesn't embrace the folly of the Sith, which is "the end justifies the means." He chooses the correct way of giving his own life for others.
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Old 07-04-2011, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post

It wasn't a matter of who was the most powerful. It was simply Palpatine protecting his best interests. The way of the Sith is for there always to be a master and an apprenctice. Once the apprentice is ready, he kills his master and chooses his own apprentice.

In Empire, you can see this is exactly what Vader intends with Luke. He wants Luke to join him so that they can take down the Emperor "and rule the galaxy as father and son."

Palpatine is no idiot. He knows this is what Vader is up to. Which is why in Jedi, he orders Luke to kill his father and take his place.
I'm aware of the Master/apprentice thing. Having said that Lucas, in one of the 'making of' documentaries on the Stars Wars DVD sets, said that Vader was essentially damaged goods( a result of his heavy injuries from the Kenobi fight and the life-sustaining suit). What you're saying is very plausible, but I'm taking my cue here from the creator himself. Which is, Palpatine sees Luke as what he originally envisioned Vader as, minus the diminished abilities as a result of being in that suit. Anakin's abililty to tap into the force was lessened once he lost parts of his body and replaced with artificial limbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post

I don't see it as a matter of will so much as a matter of choosing love over force. To get what he wanted (even if it was only to help, at first) Anakin was willing to force others, which led to his downfall. When others wouldn't do what he wanted, he tried to make them do what he wanted. Luke sees the evil in that. It is better to die for another, even for an enemy, than to bend him to your will. It's that sacrificial love that brings about Vader's redemption and the Emperor's defeat.

Which is ironic, since that is completely the opposite of what Yoda and Obi-Wan keep telling him to do. Luke, in choosing sacrifice, represents a truly new kind of Jedi.

The philosophy of the "classic" Jedi is really kind of horrific. I really can't fault Anakin too much for rejecting it. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan keep telling him to "forego attachments" and let people die rather than try to save them. Anakin rejects that (justifiably, I think) but chooses the evil way of trying to save them by any means necessary. And Yoda still doesn't get it. He's still feeding Luke the same nonsense in Empire Strikes Back.

Luke, on the other hand, makes the correct decision. He doesn't embrace the folly of the Jedi by refusing to commit to helping others. He doesn't embrace the folly of the Sith, which is "the end justifies the means." He chooses the correct way of giving his own life for others.
I agree with all this, but I still maintain that Luke's will to resist the temptation of the dark side was stronger.
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Old 07-04-2011, 01:34 PM
 
Location: NE San Antonio
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I don't see how someone as powerful as the Emp could not stop or slow his fall with the force, has wasnt even hurt or injured when Vader threw him over. Just bad story telling, really. I also don't buy into the vast SW mythos that Lucas "created", I belive he had a clear vision for the first movie and perhaps the second, the rest he "reverse engioneerd or made up as he went along (not unlke LOST). I think the SW universe is just a pale shadow or great living bodies of work created by masters like Tolkien or Roddenbury & fans.
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Old 07-04-2011, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Maine
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Originally Posted by Herbrocks View Post
I don't see how someone as powerful as the Emp could not stop or slow his fall with the force, has wasnt even hurt or injured when Vader threw him over.
Sure he was. His battle with Mace Windu left him a battered, broken old man. And his own lightning zapperino scalded him when Vader grabbed him.

Besides, in myth, the devil always has to get thrown into the Abyss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbrocks View Post
I also don't buy into the vast SW mythos that Lucas "created", I belive he had a clear vision for the first movie and perhaps the second, the rest he "reverse engioneerd or made up as he went along (not unlke LOST).
I think you're being overly generous in thinking Lucas had a "clear vision" even with the first two movies. I think he had a vague outline and direction he wanted to go, then made the rest up as he went along. And a lot changed as he went along.

For example, the whole thing about Leia being Luke's sister wasn't thought up until far into the RotJ production process. The whole "there is another" line from Empire was always intended to be Luke's sister, but it was originally intended to be a new character, not Leia, which is why there was so much Luke/Leia lip-smacking going on in the first two movies.

This new character later morphed into the character of Mara Jade in the SW novels.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbrocks View Post
I think the SW universe is just a pale shadow or great living bodies of work created by masters like Tolkien or Roddenbury & fans.
SW is great, the first two movies especially, but I love 'em all.

Comparing SW to Tolkien really isn't fair, because Tolkien was looking back in creating his own legendarium. Lucas was definitely inspired by mythology and history, but it was never his intention to create new mythology. He just wanted to make entertaining movies. I think people put a lot more depth into SW than Lucas ever intended.

And SW and Star Trek are totally different animals. SW is essentially "space fantasy." It has more in common with King Arthur and the old samurai flicks than anything scientific. Star Trek at least tries to be actual science fiction.

Comparing SW and ST really is comparing apples and organges. Yeah, they're both fruit and they're both yummy, but there the similarities end.
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