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Old 07-24-2017, 12:22 AM
 
3,131 posts, read 1,086,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Taylor View Post
Hmmm. So let me see... So I guess, Mark, if some violent criminals broke into your house one evening with the intent on doing you and your family harm... instead of doing everything in your power to stop, hurt, or kill these violent criminals before they do the same to you or your family, I'm guessing that you would sit back and let them do what they wanted to... because you knew that it would be a violent offense again these criminals if you would try to do them any harm. ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
See. You just made an argument that there is a just and necessary use of force to preserve peace and justice. And it's one I agree with.

But my problem with WONDER WOMAN was that the story never made that argument. They could have. In Act 1, the morality of the Amazons and their mission would have been a great place to do it. In Act 2, when Diana was first taking in the horrors of war would have been a great place to do it. In Act 3, when Diana decides that humanity is worth saving would have been a great place to do it. But the movie never did it.
Hmmm. Well, perhaps it's one of those goes-without-saying things where it doesn't really need to be explained because common sense dictates the truth of that argument?

However though, Mark, they actually did make that argument in the movie:

Quote:
According to the rundown, the origin is covered as an animated storybook tale told to Diana when she’s eight years old, which explains after Zeus created humanity as companions to the Greek gods, his jealous brother Ares sowed dissent by turning the minds of men to war. Using the cover of humanity’s newfound strife, Ares goes about murdering all the gods, until Zeus creates the Amazons as his tool to stop his brother. . .
And how exactly did the Amazons function as a tool to stop Ares? Well, I doubt if it was that they sat down and read poetry to him. However, Mark, I'll let you fill in the blanks on that one.

But continuing with the quote from the article:

Quote:
—and although Ares convinces mankind to enslave the Amazons for a period, they are eventually able to break free. In the meantime, Ares and Zeus battle, and are both severely wounded. Ares survives and escapes, but Zeus, with his dying breath, creates Themyscira as a safe haven for the Amazons to escape to—as well as a sword we’ve seen in the trailers and promotional pictures, the Godkiller, believed to be the only weapon that can kill Ares for good.
The Wonder Woman Movie Has a Wild New Take on the Origins of the Amazons

The Godkiller?.... Well, even that name itself is a strong argument that Zeus intended that the necessary use of force was to preserve peace and justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
What is Peace? When is violence justified? When the script demand it apparently. When Diana says, "I believe in Love," what does she mean by that? We don't know. When Gandhi or Martin Luther King or Dorothy Day or St. Francis says they believe in love, you can say: Okay. Seeing how you behave, I get what you mean. When Diana says it after killing dozens of people and bringing mayhem down on her enemies, then says, "I believe in Love," by reaction is: WTF?
Well, "I believe in Love" seems to mean that contrary to Ares' viewpoint that mankind was evil and corrupt and deserved to be destroyed(which perhaps Diana started to believe since even the Amazons told Diana that mankind didn't "deserve" her)... Diana made a choice(and with the words of Steve Trevor to help her) to not believe that it was about what people "deserved"... but that it was about believing that mankind had enough goodness in them to show love towards them... rather than just casting them off because of believing that they didn't deserve to live.

Also, could you please watch this video this time?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo1etdzeYJw
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:35 AM
 
248 posts, read 100,951 times
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And just like that, Wonder Woman is the # 1 grossing film of the summer!!!
Congrats to all involved for a phenomenal run and for creating one of the most beautiful, captivating, emotionally powerful films I have ever seen!!!
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:40 AM
 
3,131 posts, read 1,086,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oramasfella View Post
And just like that, Wonder Woman is the # 1 grossing film of the summer!!!
Congrats to all involved for a phenomenal run and for creating one of the most beautiful, captivating, emotionally powerful films I have ever seen!!!
Hear, hear!
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Old 07-24-2017, 01:32 AM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
25,418 posts, read 14,509,521 times
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My responses are in red.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Taylor View Post
William Taylor in blue.

Okay, but I'm curious. So could you give me an example of what sort of threat the Germans could have posed so that it was worthy of Wonder Woman's powers?

Super mustard gas. Amazonians were killed by bullets, you don't think that that the super mustard gas Dr. Poison made wouldn't hurt Wonder Woman? That and Ludendorff had his smelling salt revalitalizer he used to stay strong...

But isn't that the way the comic book was? For both of them? Also, how do you think that should have been made differently for the Wonder Woman movie?

It may have been but why did they copy a ****-ton of beats from Captain America: The First Avenger? There was no reason to do that.

But you act as if Wonder Woman never used a shield before in the comic books. But click on the link below:

I did and honestly it shows that the sword was used regularly (I never even questioned that) the shield is perhaps a Captain America knock-off. Not saying Diana Prince is, just a weapon of her's is.

But, mk... aren't all comic book villains deranged? And if not, are you saying that the writers could have made Ludenoff not be deranged?

A bit grasping at straws but here goes. As I would later post, they both were power hungry beyond what other military generals wanted. Red Skull wanted to have HYDRA take over the world including Germany while Ludendorff wanted to continue fighting and not heed to a pending armistice while the other German military leaders wanted just that.

Yeah, but this movie took place during a war, with lots of people and lots of soliders and lots of commanders and lots of subordinates. Therefore, are you saying that they should have had a villain who was working all by themself in the war effort against their foes?

Many war movies had something like that, even Raiders (like you mentioned in your previous post) the issue here is it hits close to home. Why, name another war themed comic book movie, that would be one that came out six years before this one.

But didn't Diana and Steve have a romance in the comic books? So therefore, are you saying that DC/Warner Bros should have changed that so that that aspect of the movie wouldn't be like the Captain America movie?

And didn't Rogers and Peggy Carter? But to your point, it wasn't that they fell in love, merely that Trevor like Rogers sacrificed himself in a plane crash to leave a grieving love interest.

Hmmm. So you believe that DC/Warner Bros. did this on purpose to copy the Captain America movie?

No it wasn't intentional, but it was lazy. There are tons of ways to leave Steve die so Wonder Woman would just hide in plain sight for 90/100 years, it was lazy to use the exact way that made Steve Rogers a cap-sicle.

So since both Captain America and Wonder Woman originally took place during WWII in the comic books, and both movies wanted to do their comic book origin stories, they had to return to action in the modern day if these heroes were to exist in our modern day. However, the only way that they could have changed that was by either eliminating Wonder Woman's origin story... or take Wonder Woman out of our present day and out of the Justice League, and have her story continue back in the early part of the 20th century after WWI. Therefore, do you think that that is what they should have did in the Wonder Woman movie?

No there isn't. While it may not be liked, Wonder Woman in the New 52 was not WWI or WWII,
why couldn't DC go with that? Remember Marvel went more with an Ultimate Imprint style rather than classsic Earth-616...


But isn't that usually the way super villians get their powers? Or do you think that he should have encountered a radioactive meteorite or something in the Wonder Woman movie? And if he did, then you would have probably compared the meteorite to the Tessarct. Therefore, how do you think that they should have went about in making the villain? Perhaps just a regular human?

Not always but common. I mean many are scientists themselves. Others like a lot in the Spider-Man,
Batman and Flash rogues galleries are crooks that stumble into super villanry with or without powers. That said,
Ludendorff didn't really need that other than to throw the viewer off with a horrible twist. I know I'm not the only one on here to hate the Ares reveal. Why because it came out of nowhere and the character was barely seen.


I don't recall that he actually broke away from the German military in the way that HYDRA did. However, basically, Ludenhoff just wanted to go about winning the war in an unconventional way that was different from the rest of the German military. But he had no aspirations of creating an organization that was seperate and/or superior to them.

He gassed the heads of the military with the super mustard gas when he was told the armistice was happening. I can't imagine how you missed that scene. Right after that, Ludendorff had his smelling salt caffine pill.

But the Red Skull became the military officers/leaders that were to be reported to. But Ludenhoff was still working on behalf of Germany.

Ah yes but Ludendorff did kill just about every German military officer other than himself.

So are you saying that you think that only Diana and Steve should have fought the bad guys by themselves?

No, it was just convenient how Diana's squad was fairly similar to a bunch of Howling Comandos...
I feared that all along.


So then you think that DC/Warner Bros. made those similarities on purpose? And for the purpose of ensuring success to the Wonder Woman movie by making it like Captain America in a lot of ways? Even though the writers and the director expressed concern about this movie not being a rip-off of Captain America?

With the hap-hazard way DC has run their movies, I wouldn't be shocked at all...

But did you ever stop to think that those similarities were only coincidences? Because some of those similarities that you mentioned, I really didn't even notice. And it seemed like only someone who was going through this movie with a fine toothed comb could notice them.

I didn't even try to do that and I could find those striking similarities.

Sorry, but I can't read your post #292 now. Also, as far as your comparison of Ten Things and Taming and Oliver & and Oliver Twist... the thing that you keep overlooking is that unlike those different-version-of-the-same-movie movies, Wonder Woman and Captain America both had similar origin stories in the comic books. But now it almost sounds like you think that they should have made Wonder Woman conspicuously different from the Captain America movie so that no one could see any similarities between them.

When WB's first hit that isn't universally divisive, takes that much from another movie, it is so damn awkward. As I said before the script writer comes off as a student that says "Oh I didn't copy Tommy's story,
his character had a cat while mine had a dog..." As strange as it sounds, I dont want to wish failure on D.C.
I want many different comic book movies. However D.C. has no good will at all after building it with this naysayer of Batman V. Superman until I saw the damn movie.


Oh, I listened.

And yet you don't recall the poisoning of the German joint chiefs and sweep aside the fact Wonder Woman unlike Capt has multiple origins. Capt's origin in the Ultimates was the same except when he was awoken...

Well, at least it looks like one of my points go through to you.
They have, BUT at the same time the issue is these were glaring beat copies. I got most without even thinking of it during the movie.
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Elysium
5,819 posts, read 3,097,420 times
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On the Dana squad versus Howling Commandos issue exactly what did the squad offer that Captain Trevor couldn't have done alone? People out of uniform in no man's land. A sniper who couldn't shoot anymore, smoke signals and a driver to infiltrate a meeting. With Wonder Woman at an entirely different power level than a mere super soldier they only served as someone to talk to.
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:57 AM
 
17,930 posts, read 9,854,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
On the Dana squad versus Howling Commandos issue exactly what did the squad offer that Captain Trevor couldn't have done alone? People out of uniform in no man's land. A sniper who couldn't shoot anymore, smoke signals and a driver to infiltrate a meeting. With Wonder Woman at an entirely different power level than a mere super soldier they only served as someone to talk to.
I agree they could have done without them, although we did get some funny lines out of them.


However, it appears that the Chief's name identifies him as a Native American demi-god. He had a short discussion with Diana in his native language...I haven't heard that anyone has interpreted that yet. But if he's also a demi-god, maybe he'll show up again.
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Old 07-25-2017, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Maine
15,092 posts, read 19,737,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Taylor View Post
Hmmm. Well, perhaps it's one of those goes-without-saying things where it doesn't really need to be explained because common sense dictates the truth of that argument?
When a character whose dozens of dead enemies are still not cold and who is standing amidst the flames of the destruction she just wrought says, "I believe in Love," then yes, an explanation is warranted. If she had said, "I believe in Justice" or "I believe in Truth and the American Way," well ... okay, I guess. But for a character who just killed a few dozen people to say, "I believe in Love" ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by William Taylor View Post
Also, could you please watch this video this time?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo1etdzeYJw
Maybe later. Because right now in terms of this discussion ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uai7M4RpoLU
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Old 07-25-2017, 09:53 AM
 
17,930 posts, read 9,854,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
When a character whose dozens of dead enemies are still not cold and who is standing amidst the flames of the destruction she just wrought says, "I believe in Love," then yes, an explanation is warranted. If she had said, "I believe in Justice" or "I believe in Truth and the American Way," well ... okay, I guess. But for a character who just killed a few dozen people to say, "I believe in Love" ...
That is a dichotomy not limited to Wonder Woman, though, but would have been pertinent to everyone on the battlefield.


What role does killing fill in any of the "moral" reasons a soldier finds himself on the battlefield? I've known a fair number of soldiers who have spent hundreds of quiet hours asking whether killing that particular kid or that particular woman actually fulfilled the morale rationale for their being on the battlefield in the first place.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
12,136 posts, read 8,112,434 times
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Having an ADD moment here but to whoever said that WW should be affected by Mustard gas you have to remember she's a Goddess. Bullets MIGHT kill her but then again her being a God and all they might not.
The one Amazon who did get killed wasn't a God.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:58 PM
 
17,930 posts, read 9,854,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reed067 View Post
Having an ADD moment here but to whoever said that WW should be affected by Mustard gas you have to remember she's a Goddess. Bullets MIGHT kill her but then again her being a God and all they might not.
The one Amazon who did get killed wasn't a God.
Yes, I'm not sure that Diana realized earlier (for instance, in the No Man's Land scene) that bullets could not have hurt her anyway.
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