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Old 05-22-2016, 07:02 AM
 
4,216 posts, read 3,002,810 times
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They're all Iron Man movies if Iron Man is in it.
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Old 05-22-2016, 07:34 AM
 
86 posts, read 35,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkpunk View Post
$870 on a movie that should have been the licence to print billions. Don't get me wrong, I loved that movie honestly but it made quarters to what it should have done because the fans turned on it the minute it came out and to most people, that film went over their heads. Because of that fact, the movie netted about 100-200m after the theater cut (especially internationally)'and the astronomically high production and marketing budgets when it should have made $500m on box office alone.

Civil War however was Batman V. Superman in a proven universe that most people fully enjoy and was what the general audience wanted from BvS but didn't get. Far too many scratched their heads with BvS while Civil War made everything fit without leaving important details to an extended cut of the film.
Hi, mkpunk. And actually, I agree with everything that you said wholeheartedly. However, the thing that I was disagreeing with you about was when you said in another post that the general audience doesn't like dark comic book movies. And I don't think that it was the 'darkness' of BVS that they didn't like, because like you had said, CACW was basically the same movie as BVS(i.e. just as dark and had similar themes), but CACW was a better movie than BVS and will probably gross as much as Iron Man 3 domestically and internationally.
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Old 05-22-2016, 07:52 AM
 
16,289 posts, read 8,743,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkpunk View Post
$870 on a movie that should have been the licence to print billions. Don't get me wrong, I loved that movie honestly but it made quarters to what it should have done because the fans turned on it the minute it came out and to most people, that film went over their heads. Because of that fact, the movie netted about 100-200m after the theater cut (especially internationally)'and the astronomically high production and marketing budgets when it should have made $500m on box office alone.

Civil War however was Batman V. Superman in a proven universe that most people fully enjoy and was what the general audience wanted from BvS but didn't get. Far too many scratched their heads with BvS while Civil War made everything fit without leaving important details to an extended cut of the film.
You're right. By the time the Marvel Universe got to superheroes fighting superheroes, not only had all the characters already been established for the audience (even Spiderman, albeit not in the MCU), but the foundation of their motivations for this fight had already been laid down.
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Old 05-22-2016, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
10,963 posts, read 7,427,528 times
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I have to admit when I read the comic I was surprised that Tony was for the bill. Because he knows better then anyone who the government can twist things, he even relayed that message to Rodgers in the first Avengers movie.
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Old 05-22-2016, 01:00 PM
 
4,582 posts, read 1,910,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
You're right. By the time the Marvel Universe got to superheroes fighting superheroes, not only had all the characters already been established for the audience (even Spiderman, albeit not in the MCU), but the foundation of their motivations for this fight had already been laid down.
The motivations in the two films aren't identical. Batman v Superman is exactly that, as the former perceives the latter as a nigh-uncontrollable threat. It's too much of a grey area for him to let wash over. In Civil War, one figurehead (who himself has operated without a leash since the beginning) wants to convince another to attach a leash to himself (and he's had one before, and no longer wishes to). From there, the story downshifts to a much more personal if forced conflict.

I found the initial confrontation between Batman and Superman more intense, more brutal. Batman nails him with the kryptonite and then tosses him around like a puppet. He even breaks a sink over his head.

Iron Man seemed too depowered to let himself be taken down by Cap and Bucky, IMO. He chest-repulsed Bucky's arm right off him, but uses nothing else in the armor's arsenal to neutralize Cap or Bucky, and lets himself get whomped by, basically, a shield. A vibranium shield, but still, a shield.

Both are good movies, I just found CW to be simpler than everyone else makes it out to be. It will be remembered for its battles, mainly (the awful camerawork in much of the action notwithstanding).
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Old 05-22-2016, 02:27 PM
 
16,289 posts, read 8,743,169 times
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Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
The motivations in the two films aren't identical.
Of course they're not. My points are:

1. The motivation of the conflict of CA:CW was laid down much more concretely, thoroughly, and rationally

2. We knew the characters well enough from their earlier exposures to have a good feeling about the rationality of their individual decisions

3. The rationale for the motivation was sufficient to support the level of conflict--the Avengers were not fighting to the death.

It's pretty difficult to develop believable motivation for superheroes to engage in a fight to the death, especially when the intended outcome is for them to become close comrades. SvB attempted to use a foolish misunderstanding as the motivation and then attempted to resolve it just as shallowly...with no hard feelings after a fight to the death.

The resolution of the conflict in CA:CW was much more realistic. They had real reasons for conflict, and those reasons were not simply resolved, not even by the audience.
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Old 05-22-2016, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
23,683 posts, read 13,356,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
The motivations in the two films aren't identical. Batman v Superman is exactly that, as the former perceives the latter as a nigh-uncontrollable threat. It's too much of a grey area for him to let wash over. In Civil War, one figurehead (who himself has operated without a leash since the beginning) wants to convince another to attach a leash to himself (and he's had one before, and no longer wishes to). From there, the story downshifts to a much more personal if forced conflict.

I found the initial confrontation between Batman and Superman more intense, more brutal. Batman nails him with the kryptonite and then tosses him around like a puppet. He even breaks a sink over his head.

Iron Man seemed too depowered to let himself be taken down by Cap and Bucky, IMO. He chest-repulsed Bucky's arm right off him, but uses nothing else in the armor's arsenal to neutralize Cap or Bucky, and lets himself get whomped by, basically, a shield. A vibranium shield, but still, a shield.

Both are good movies, I just found CW to be simpler than everyone else makes it out to be. It will be remembered for its battles, mainly (the awful camerawork in much of the action notwithstanding).
Batman V. Superman vs. Civil War is a bit of a difference in what you saw in it. The majority of people didn't get what you and I got from the movie at all. Most saw it and didn't like it because to them, the motivations for the fight wasn't there and to be fair it wasn't Batman versus Superman except for a ten/fifteen minute fight. Civil War had Rogers versus Stark boiling over for years as they never really got along even in The Avengers and more so in Age of Ultron. No ret-con like in Batman V. Superman needed. That and it wasn't truly beaten in, it was normal tension that just came to a head.
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Old 05-22-2016, 03:10 PM
 
4,582 posts, read 1,910,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Of course they're not. My points are:

1. The motivation of the conflict of CA:CW was laid down much more concretely, thoroughly, and rationally

2. We knew the characters well enough from their earlier exposures to have a good feeling about the rationality of their individual decisions

3. The rationale for the motivation was sufficient to support the level of conflict--the Avengers were not fighting to the death.

It's pretty difficult to develop believable motivation for superheroes to engage in a fight to the death, especially when the intended outcome is for them to become close comrades. SvB attempted to use a foolish misunderstanding as the motivation and then attempted to resolve it just as shallowly...with no hard feelings after a fight to the death.

The resolution of the conflict in CA:CW was much more realistic. They had real reasons for conflict, and those reasons were not simply resolved, not even by the audience.
Actually, they were already halfway to their expected resolution thanks to the end of the movie. The package from Steve defused whatever had been left over, which, IMO, was disappointing. That was way too soon for either of those guys to get over anything.

The BvS fight wasn't resolved "shallowly" at all. Everyone jokes "Because Martha!" but that is an oversimplification. In a nutshell, Batman saw this being as one he had perceived as inhuman, an alien, a threat to humankind (after what happened to his building, can you blame him). Bruce had an epiphany, basically. There's no more reason to ridicule the film for it than there is to mock Iron Man 3 for Stark's ("You're a mechanic...so build something!").

Last edited by AFtrEFkt; 05-22-2016 at 03:33 PM.. Reason: Typo fix.
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Old 05-22-2016, 03:30 PM
 
16,289 posts, read 8,743,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
Actually, they were already halfway to their expected resolution thanks to the end of the movie. The package from Steve defused whatever had been left over, which, IMO, was disappointing. That was way too soon for either of those guys to get over anything.

The BvS fight wasn't resolved "shallowly" at all. Everyone jokes "Because Martha!" but that is an oversimplification. In a nutshell, Batman saw this being as one he had perceived as inhuman, an alien, a thread to humankind (after what happened to his building, can you blame him). Bruce had an epiphany, basically. There's no more reason to ridicule the film for it than there is to mock Iron Man 3 for Stark's ("You're a mechanic...so build something!").
Resolution by epiphany is another term for deus ex machina, and is never satisfying. BVS was essentially what Roger Ebert coined a "dummy plot"--the plot exists only because the characters act uncharacteristically stupid--such as the "world's greatest detective" rationalizing murder based on a judgment with little evidence...and that evidence being the same kinds of acts he himself committed.

When all it really takes to diffuse a plot would be for the conflicted characters to sit down to lunch and talk, that's a "dummy plot." That's why the conflict between Iron Man and Captain America is not a dummy plot--they did sit down and discuss their differences beforehand.
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Old 05-22-2016, 03:39 PM
 
4,582 posts, read 1,910,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Resolution by epiphany is another term for deus ex machina, and is never satisfying. BVS was essentially what Roger Ebert coined a "dummy plot"--the plot exists only because the characters act uncharacteristically stupid--such as the "world's greatest detective" rationalizing murder based on a judgment with little evidence...and that evidence being the same kinds of acts he himself committed.

When all it really takes to diffuse a plot would be for the conflicted characters to sit down to lunch and talk, that's a "dummy plot." That's why the conflict between Iron Man and Captain America is not a dummy plot--they did sit down and discuss their differences beforehand.
Civil War is not complex at all. A deus ex machina is something that is introduced unexpectedly that provides a contrivance or means by which a scenario or situation is resolved or mitigated. Batman realizing he should not kill Superman is not that — after all, he was seconds away from killing him. Lois was there, too, remember?

I'm afraid Zemo's ultra-convenient security cam footage in Civil War is a deus ex machina all the way. Not only was that cam present on a section of rural road, and not only was the Winter Soldier the one tasked with the gig when anyone could have performed it, but he also neglected wearing his mask, and the camera eye got the perfect shot of his mug. So that it was unmistakably Barnes, and so that Tony could see that. And so that Tony could ask Steve "You knew?" And so that the three of them would fight.

And let's not get into how Iron Man suddenly is less-than-capable of taking them down. The entire movie is "fun," yes, but it can be picked apart like baked chicken off the bone.

It's just sad that in a film titled Captain America: Civil War, the title character is the macguffin.
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