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Old 09-03-2016, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Maine
22,893 posts, read 28,171,272 times
Reputation: 31128

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
Again, Justice League will complete an arc. What part of that did you miss?
The part where I cared. Seriously though, if Act 1 wasn't that great, Act 2 was downright bad, then the fact that Act 3 will finish the arc hardly fills me with excitement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
None of this "they should have kicked Zack outta there" nonsense began till after BvS came out, and a lot of that was generated by the same critics who disowned MoS because Superman killed Zod. And these same critics crapped over Batman killing, when he killed in Burton's movies and nobody bitched.
I don't know about critics (I was still in the high school at the time and paid no attention at all to critics), but lots of fans complained about Burton too.

Speaking only for myself, I gave Snyder the benefit of the doubt because I kinda liked the first half of Man of Steel when I saw it in the theater. Hated the second half. But when I rewatched it on TV, I realized the first half wasn't all that great either. It had good moments. But no good whole. But I'd hoped Snyder might learn from his mistakes and improve in the sequel. But he didn't. Things actually got worse. Lots, lots worse.

But Batman and Superman killing is only one of many points of evidence proving that Snyder fundamentally does not understand these characters. He doesn't understand their pathos, their psyche, or why they have been beloved heroes for decades. He doesn't even seem to have a basic grasp of heroic morality. He just doesn't get it. Plain as that.

But let's dissect the killing a bit.

The fundamental problem is not that Snyder has turned his heroes into killers. Lots of heroes in movies and myth have been killers. The problem is that Snyder has turned them into remorseless killers. Killing holds no weight for Superman or Batman in these movies. Neither expresses an ounce of regret. They justify their actions. That doesn't make them heroes. It makes them villains.

Add to that bad characterizations, an utter lack of narrative flow, an Ayn Randian philosophy of morality, and unrelenting darkness and explosions, and there you have why I want Snyder completely cut out of any story decisions. And why I'd like a do-over. I'm afraid Snyder has wrecked this franchise beyond repair.
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Old 09-03-2016, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Maine
22,893 posts, read 28,171,272 times
Reputation: 31128
Quote:
Originally Posted by nc17 View Post
The long-running Singer series is running out of steam (although again, the last 2 X-movies crossed $500m. As long as these movies are budgeted with the expectation of making that amount, movie studios like Fox have a low risk-high reward investment with superhero movies), and is overdue for a refresh. The answer for Fox is to explore other aspects of the mutant-verse that they hold the license to.
The starting point is Deadpool, which I hear will be followed by The New Mutants.
The way Apocalypse ended, it was a good place to shut the series down. Make the Deadpool sequel and TNM, introducing new characters and X-Men cameos (like DP's Colossus, no relation to the Singer series). Then make an event film featuring the X-Men and the other characters introduced since Deadpool.
X-Men ought to be a cable TV show. There are too many characters and too many epic storylines to do well in movies. The problem is that most TV shows don't have the budget to do the FX needed for X-Men. But that's changing. GAME OF THRONES has proved it can be done. If WESTWORLD turns in to any kind of hit, I sure hope the push will be for more epic SF/Fantasy and TV and less in the movies.
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:24 PM
 
8,609 posts, read 5,596,235 times
Reputation: 5116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
The part where I cared.
Yes, Marvelman. (Wait, Marvelman has only been a Marvel Comics property since 2009. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
The fundamental problem is not that Snyder has turned his heroes into killers. Lots of heroes in movies and myth have been killers. The problem is that Snyder has turned them into remorseless killers. Killing holds no weight for Superman or Batman in these movies. Neither expresses an ounce of regret. They justify their actions. That doesn't make them heroes. It makes them villains.
...aaaaaaand you are mistaken, as evidenced by Superman's immediate reaction to neutralizing Zod, and by Bruce Wayne's words at the end of BvS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
And why I'd like a do-over.
The do-over happened with Man of Steel. Not happening again. The slate is loaded. The ovens are hot, and the meals are cooking. If you don't want to attend any of the feasts, it is not required of thee.


(You know, I could've sworn you were looking forward to Wonder Woman. If you want a total wipe, you'll never get to see it...right?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
I'm afraid Snyder has wrecked this franchise beyond repair.
No need to be melodramatic. Maybe you should stick with Ant-Man (the movie that took some eight years to complete and barely represents an effort than Thor: The Dark World).
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:35 PM
 
8,609 posts, read 5,596,235 times
Reputation: 5116
Quote:
Originally Posted by nc17 View Post
The long-running Singer series is running out of steam (although again, the last 2 X-movies crossed $500m. As long as these movies are budgeted with the expectation of making that amount, movie studios like Fox have a low risk-high reward investment with superhero movies), and is overdue for a refresh. The answer for Fox is to explore other aspects of the mutant-verse that they hold the license to.
It would seem that way, but it's no mystery X-Men: Apocalypse performed well below their expected minimum (over $600 million, I'm sure).

X-Men: Days of Future Past grossed 748M worldwide, and some analysts say it didn't enter the profit zone while in theaters. That's still a nice sum for any movie to end its run with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc17 View Post
The starting point is Deadpool, which I hear will be followed by The New Mutants.
They do need to introduce new characters from the ranks (there are many) and refer to other stories of Claremont's in order to get away from the misfit agenda for at least a couple movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc17 View Post
The way Apocalypse ended, it was a good place to shut the series down. Make the Deadpool sequel and TNM, introducing new characters and X-Men cameos (like DP's Colossus, no relation to the Singer series). Then make an event film featuring the X-Men and the other characters introduced since Deadpool.
They're not going to, because Apocalypse has given them their new actor team for Jean Grey, Scott Summers, Ororo Munroe, Kurt Wagner, and Warren/Angel, not to mention Hank/Beast and the rest. They've all signed multi-pic contracts. Kinberg's said he wants another crack at the Dark/Phoenix storyline — and if it comes in the next movie, that's already too soon.
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Sequoia Heights, Oakland, CA
406 posts, read 287,743 times
Reputation: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
Iron Man – $585,174,222
The Incredible Hulk – $263,427,551
Iron Man 2 – $623,933,331
Thor – $449,326,618

Cumulative worldwide gross of the first four MCU films: $1,921,861,722


Man of Steel – $668,045,518
Batman v Superman – $872,662,631
Suicide Squad (not yet updated through 9/2) – $614,117,209

Cumulative worldwide gross of the first three DCEU films: $2,154,825,358


The DCEU is not being rebooted anytime soon. 2017's going to kick ass!
Yes, there is something remarkable about a Superman and Batman film outgrossing the first films of b-list superheroes (formerly).

Here's the crux of the problem:

Based on RT scores:

94%: Iron Man
80%: First Avenger
77%: Thor
72%: Iron Man 2
57%: Incredible Hulk

55%: Man of Steel
27%: Batman v Superman
26%: Suicide Squad

Last edited by the happy guy; 09-03-2016 at 09:19 PM..
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:17 PM
 
1,672 posts, read 1,244,558 times
Reputation: 1772
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
It would seem that way, but it's no mystery X-Men: Apocalypse performed well below their expected minimum (over $600 million, I'm sure).
It may have underperformed. But there's a lot of fan pessimism surrounding the biggest film genre in Hollywood, behind only Star Wars really. Not even cg animation, aside from Pixar mostly, is a guaranteed money-maker like superheroes.

For the next mutant movie, Fox has to finance their budget around the near-certainty that it will make $500 million. After that, they project home video sales and make sponsorship, merchandising, TV/on-demand deals, to ensure that they make their investment back.
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Old 09-04-2016, 01:01 AM
 
Location: Sequoia Heights, Oakland, CA
406 posts, read 287,743 times
Reputation: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by the happy guy View Post

Based on RT scores:

94%: Iron Man
80%: First Avenger
77%: Thor
72%: Iron Man 2
67%: Incredible Hulk

55%: Man of Steel
27%: Batman v Superman
26%: Suicide Squad
Correction in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc17 View Post
It may have underperformed. But there's a lot of fan pessimism surrounding the biggest film genre in Hollywood, behind only Star Wars really. Not even cg animation, aside from Pixar mostly, is a guaranteed money-maker like superheroes.

For the next mutant movie, Fox has to finance their budget around the near-certainty that it will make $500 million. After that, they project home video sales and make sponsorship, merchandising, TV/on-demand deals, to ensure that they make their investment back.
Or maybe Fox should follow Sony's lead.
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Old 09-04-2016, 02:05 AM
 
1,672 posts, read 1,244,558 times
Reputation: 1772
Quote:
Originally Posted by the happy guy View Post
Or maybe Fox should follow Sony's lead.
Outside of Netflix, the R-rated Deadpool we ended up with would have never materialized as it did under Disney. I'd rather have Fox handle the mutant-verse faithfully, than add them to the already diverse MCU.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Maine
22,893 posts, read 28,171,272 times
Reputation: 31128
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
...aaaaaaand you are mistaken, as evidenced by Superman's immediate reaction to neutralizing Zod
Not what I meant. I meant the thousands that died in Metropolis due to his own stupidity, and the people he killed in BvS (the ones you said weren't dead because going through a stone wall at 400 miles an hour is apparently just a flesh wound).


Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
and by Bruce Wayne's words at the end of BvS.
He expressed regret at the dozens of bad guys he killed? When? I must've missed that part. Perhaps my eyes were still suffering the after-effect of all the explosions and chase scenes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
(You know, I could've sworn you were looking forward to Wonder Woman. If you want a total wipe, you'll never get to see it...right?)
I am looking forward to it. But if Snyder was at all involved in the story, my optimism is set at about 0.0001. The preview certainly looked good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
Maybe you should stick with Ant-Man (the movie that took some eight years to complete and barely represents an effort than Thor: The Dark World).
Ant-Man was a fun popcorn flick about one of Marvel's third-tier heroes. It was fun enough that it actually elevated the character. It was nothing deep or ground-breaking, nor did it aspire to be. It was fun. That's it.

Snyder was given charge of the two greatest demi-gods of comic books and turned them into boring, feckless thugs. Boo! Boo! I say!
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Old 09-04-2016, 12:33 PM
 
8,609 posts, read 5,596,235 times
Reputation: 5116
Quote:
Originally Posted by the happy guy View Post
Yes, there is something remarkable about a Superman and Batman film outgrossing the first films of b-list superheroes (formerly).

Here's the crux of the problem:

Based on RT scores:

94%: Iron Man
80%: First Avenger
77%: Thor
72%: Iron Man 2
57%: Incredible Hulk

55%: Man of Steel
27%: Batman v Superman
26%: Suicide Squad
Those RT critic scores are heavily affected now by every Tom, Dick, Harry, Oscar, Josephine, Esmeralda and Gwyneth who fancies himself or herself a film critic and has a blog or YouTube channel where they air out their laundry. When you see a face attached to a source like the "L.A. Biz" (Ever heard of it? No? Me, neither!)

The audience score for Man of Steel is 75% and the audience score for Suicide Squad is 67%.

Obviously, not everyone shares the opinions of the "critics." When the RT critic score average for Suicide Squad roughly parallels that of BvS, it doesn't take Dr. Giggles to figure out there's a herd mentality that wants to keep nailing down the goalposts.

Audiences like Suicide Squad, and its box office gross (almost at 300 million domestic now) speaks volumes. People figured out they can vote with their time and money, and they have.
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