U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Entertainment and Arts > Movies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-14-2016, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
3,932 posts, read 1,837,478 times
Reputation: 8729

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
There's wasn't enough talk.
How would more talk have helped the movie? What would you have had the characters talk about that wasn't already discussed? This is an honest question and not snark, by the way.

(I would have liked the Ancient One to have been more specific about why she chose to extend the length of her life by channeling power from the Dark Dimension, knowing how easily that act could be misinterpreted by others, but that's a pretty small nit to pick. I thought the final conversation between her and Strange did make it clear that her reasons weren't purely personal and she wasn't simply doing it because she was afraid of death, as Kaicelius was.

Oh, and I actually liked Tilda Swinton in the role.)

Quote:
Strange didn't utter one incantation, either.
So? Using incantations on screen runs the risk of backfiring and making the film version of Dr. Strange look like Harry Potter; just say the magic words and *poof* you cast a spell. I thought the film was pretty clear that properly focusing the mind is what generated a spell, rather than specific gestures or words (as Strange initially thought when he kept blaming his difficulties on his hands).

Quote:
Like a guy pointed out on another forum site, the powers we saw all looked like they could have been performed by one of the X-mutants. The exception, of course, being the Eye of Agamotto.
And the Cloak of Levitation. And the Staff of the Living Tribunal. And the Vaulting Boots.... We actually saw quite a few magical artifacts in use in the film.

And I'm hard-pressed to see how any display of magic on screen could be 100% distinguished from mutant abilities, given that both seem to require some inherent "specialness" on the part of the individual in question. Come to think of it, couldn't having a special aptitude for the mystic arts be seen as a sort of "mutation," given that it's a gift most people lack?

Quote:
For me, too much of it was rooted in kung fu.
That's certainly a fair criticism. Film in general, though, is going to be biased in favor of visual action, so it's understandable that the filmmakers chose to make the fights look like physical fights and not just people blasting mystic beans of light at each other.

I, too, would have liked the film to be a bit longer and less rushed, but overall I thought it was pretty successful. And given that Dr. Strange is one of the less-familiar Marvel characters to the average moviegoer, and thus harder to translate successfully to the screen, I'm happy we got something as good as we did.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-14-2016, 02:24 PM
 
2,645 posts, read 870,673 times
Reputation: 1583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
How would more talk have helped the movie? What would you have had the characters talk about that wasn't already discussed? This is an honest question and not snark, by the way.
Maybe something like: "Shuma-Gorath!"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k9cJF5ktpM...iere-14-13.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
So? Using incantations on screen runs the risk of backfiring and making the film version of Dr. Strange look like Harry Potter; just say the magic words and *poof* you cast a spell. I thought the film was pretty clear that properly focusing the mind is what generated a spell, rather than specific gestures or words (as Strange initially thought when he kept blaming his difficulties on his hands).
Everything is compared to something that came before. It's a moot point. Rather than compare it to Harry Potter (not the first guy on the block to use magic as a weapon or tool, either), the movie, to me, harks back to the Obi-Wan/Anakin-"Chosen One" template, and the scene where Ancient Tilda shows up to rescue Strange and Mordo pretty much seals that deal. Disney's really doing the Captain Obvious thing with the Star Wars-isms these days. It would've been cool to hear Doctor Strange say some of the stuff he says in the comics. (And refrain from lame jokes.) That's all. I'd also have liked the Cloak to resemble the one in the comics, but I guess they thought it looked too, uh, "occultish"?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
And the Cloak of Levitation. And the Staff of the Living Tribunal. And the Vaulting Boots.... We actually saw quite a few magical artifacts in use in the film.
The Cloak was a given. The Staff is a nice Easter egg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
And I'm hard-pressed to see how any display of magic on screen could be 100% distinguished from mutant abilities, given that both seem to require some inherent "specialness" on the part of the individual in question. Come to think of it, couldn't having a special aptitude for the mystic arts be seen as a sort of "mutation," given that it's a gift most people lack?
An "aptitude" can be likened to a "mutation"? Aptitude means not only natural ability or talent, it also means suitability, i.e. an inherent ability for learning something. A mutation is a structural (usually permanent) change on a minor or major level.

Doctor Strange is not a mutant. Also, and I'm sure the movies are going to shun this part of his origin, but his powers of sorcery are actually derived largely from entities. Agamotto is one, but as you say, they already shifted its nature to that of being the Time Stone, so that Doc can play a large role in Infinity War. Other entities are Watoomb and Ikonn. Just like Ancient Tilda drew energy from Dormammu, Strange draws energy from certain otherdimensional entities. This is the kind of stuff Kevin Feige wants to avoid relating. He wants the audience to accept that Stephen learned how to open sparking doorways (that always spark, and are always circular, no matter what) by moving his hands just so over and over till he gets it right. The Book of Vishanti (a grimoire of white magic) is where many of Strange's incantations come from, but we didn't hear him say zip, after we saw him absorb a stack of those books with his "photographic memory" (something new for the movie, ha). Strange's hands are an important part of his spellcasting, though, which is why intelli-Hulk crushes them in World War Hulk. Strange comes back to fight Hulk, though, by allowing himself to be possessed by an entity called Zom (Zom (Earth-616 | Marvel Database | Fandom powered by Wikia)) whose power is said to rival the others, Dormammu's included.

Lee and Ditko crafted a very rich background for Doctor Strange, but judging by the tone of this first movie, I don't think we're going to get to see very little of it. We got more Matrix, Inception and Star Wars vibes from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
That's certainly a fair criticism. Film in general, though, is going to be biased in favor of visual action, so it's understandable that the filmmakers chose to make the fights look like physical fights and not just people blasting mystic beans of light at each other.
"The mystic fruit that makes mystics toot!" Just kidding. As you write, film favors visuals. Well, as we saw, VFX has advanced to the point they can convey just about anything. Now how about a few dozen less kicks and punches (which Hong Kong cinema does far, far better, anyway) and maybe try this:


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-V94DeVTeOs...ge-51%2B20.jpg
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2016, 02:25 PM
 
2,645 posts, read 870,673 times
Reputation: 1583
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2016, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
3,932 posts, read 1,837,478 times
Reputation: 8729
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
Everything is compared to something that came before. It's a moot point. Rather than compare it to Harry Potter (not the first guy on the block to use magic as a weapon or tool, either), the movie, to me, harks back to the Obi-Wan/Anakin-"Chosen One" template...
Which is a good thing, because the magic in the Harry Potter universe generally comes off as not only non-threatening but ridiculous (not surprising given that it's a children's book series). That's the last thing you want Dr. Strange to be compared to; his magic needs to feel both real and dangerous, not silly.

Quote:
I'd also have liked the Cloak to resemble the one in the comics, but I guess they thought it looked too, uh, "occultish"?
I think they probably thought it wouldn't film as well as the version they settled on. A lot of costumes which look great on paper look not-so-great when worn by actually people in a film. The big sweeping hornlike arcs on the drawn version of the cloak would probably look distracting as hell in an actual worn version (plus they'd risk drawing the viewer's attention away from the actor's face, which usually isn't a good thing).

Quote:
An "aptitude" can be likened to a "mutation"? Aptitude means not only natural ability or talent, it also means suitability, i.e. an inherent ability for learning something. A mutation is a structural (usually permanent) change on a minor or major level.
And what gives that inherent ability, other than some sort of subtle structural difference in the person's body or brain?

Quote:
Doctor Strange is not a mutant.
But given that the film is going with the "exceptional gifts/Chosen One" explanation for why he becomes the Sorcerer Supreme, he might as well be. When you think about it, what's the difference between a magician and a mutant? They both do things that flat-out-break the laws of physics; one does it because of "mutant genes" while the other does it because of either "special learning" or "inherent magical gifts"; it's the same gobbldygook explanation for the impossible in both cases, just wrapped in a different color of wrapping paper. (Ditto the tech in most film SciFi, which is really fantasy dressed up in a scientific costume. "Warp Drive" is just neater-sounding than "Seven League Boots," but it is equally implausible and serves the same story purpose. REAL hard science fiction rarely makes it onto the screen.)

Quote:
Also, and I'm sure the movies are going to shun this part of his origin, but his powers of sorcery are actually derived largely from entities. Agamotto is one, but as you say, they already shifted its nature to that of being the Time Stone, so that Doc can play a large role in Infinity War. Other entities are Watoomb and Ikonn. Just like Ancient Tilda drew energy from Dormammu, Strange draws energy from certain otherdimensional entities. This is the kind of stuff Kevin Feige wants to avoid relating.
And for obvious reasons - a large percentage of the audience would have MAJOR issues with that (to the point where they'd boycott the film over it). That's WAY too close to demonic possession/deal with the Devil stuff for a lot of film-goers.

Dr. Strange as the Sorcerer Supreme because his (<strike>midichlorons</strike>) inherent aptitude for the mystic arts allows him to study and master advanced areas of arcane knowledge is an approach which is much less likely to offend a general audience.

Quote:
Lee and Ditko crafted a very rich background for Doctor Strange, but judging by the tone of this first movie, I don't think we're going to get to see very little of it. We got more Matrix, Inception and Star Wars vibes from it.
Unfortunately that's a common difference between the movie and the original source material. There's a lot more room to develop concepts when you're not confined to what you can show visually in just 2-3 hours.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2016, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
7,772 posts, read 5,872,265 times
Reputation: 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
There's wasn't enough talk. Strange didn't utter one incantation, either. Like a guy pointed out on another forum site, the powers we saw all looked like they could have been performed by one of the X-mutants. The exception, of course, being the Eye of Agamotto.

For me, too much of it was rooted in kung fu. It's an entertaining movie, if a bit rushed (felt about 10-15 minutes too short), but it should have been the first solo origin movie to really rival Iron Man.
I thought someone might bring that up about him not speaking his spells out loud. But at the same time I think the .movie would of been less interesting if he had.

As far as the Kung-Fu goes I think it fit it perfectly. Look at Tai-Chi. Most martial arts have some sort of roots in martial arts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2016, 06:59 PM
 
2,645 posts, read 870,673 times
Reputation: 1583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
Which is a good thing, because the magic in the Harry Potter universe generally comes off as not only non-threatening but ridiculous (not surprising given that it's a children's book series). That's the last thing you want Dr. Strange to be compared to; his magic needs to feel both real and dangerous, not silly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not a Potter fan at all (never seen one film), but weren't the last couple installments of that franchise much darker than its opening chapters? I don't buy the notion that utterances reduce the threatening nature of a spell. Quite the opposite rather, since they tend to involve arcane language. Fear of the unknown, and all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
I think they probably thought it wouldn't film as well as the version they settled on. A lot of costumes which look great on paper look not-so-great when worn by actually people in a film. The big sweeping hornlike arcs on the drawn version of the cloak would probably look distracting as hell in an actual worn version (plus they'd risk drawing the viewer's attention away from the actor's face, which usually isn't a good thing).
And it wouldn't have lent itself as well to that visual gag when Christine looks at it and shakes her head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
And what gives that inherent ability, other than some sort of subtle structural difference in the person's body or brain?
Inclination and prowess stand apart from mutant and mutation, though they may overlap. The "chosen one" trope is beyond stale, but I wasn't surprised to see it thrown into this movie. Strange was originally chosen to be trained by The Ancient One because he tried (and nearly failed) to stop Baron Mordo from killing him. The only reason he ends up seeking TAO is because of his hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
But given that the film is going with the "exceptional gifts/Chosen One" explanation for why he becomes the Sorcerer Supreme, he might as well be. When you think about it, what's the difference between a magician and a mutant? They both do things that flat-out-break the laws of physics; one does it because of "mutant genes" while the other does it because of either "special learning" or "inherent magical gifts"; it's the same gobbldygook explanation for the impossible in both cases, just wrapped in a different color of wrapping paper.
The mutant aberration is physical (genetic). As ridiculous as some of their powers are (like a guy turning into an ice cube, or a few hundred thousand ball bearings), the mutant gene causes the condition. The power set of a mutant is limited most of the time to one ability. A magician can do many things, but he — Strange — is still human: no healing factor, no extraordinary strength nor heightened senses. Completely different power set. But the effects of sorcery can be extraordinary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
(Ditto the tech in most film SciFi, which is really fantasy dressed up in a scientific costume. "Warp Drive" is just neater-sounding than "Seven League Boots," but it is equally implausible and serves the same story purpose. REAL hard science fiction rarely makes it onto the screen.)
IMO, more people would like to see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
And for obvious reasons - a large percentage of the audience would have MAJOR issues with that (to the point where they'd boycott the film over it). That's WAY too close to demonic possession/deal with the Devil stuff for a lot of film-goers.
They watered it down more than they had to. Now Strange is going to be Tony Stark, Part Deux and will likely fill that void when Downey finally exits the franchise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2016, 07:01 PM
 
2,645 posts, read 870,673 times
Reputation: 1583
Quote:
Originally Posted by reed067 View Post
I thought someone might bring that up about him not speaking his spells out loud. But at the same time I think the .movie would of been less interesting if he had.

As far as the Kung-Fu goes I think it fit it perfectly. Look at Tai-Chi. Most martial arts have some sort of roots in martial arts.
I should clarify. The magic Strange learns should stand apart from the martial arts disciplines he learns (because he does learn several in the comics). When I saw The Ancient One holding a fan while doing her Inception thing, it made me chuckle.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-15-2016, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
7,772 posts, read 5,872,265 times
Reputation: 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
I should clarify. The magic Strange learns should stand apart from the martial arts disciplines he learns (because he does learn several in the comics). When I saw The Ancient One holding a fan while doing her Inception thing, it made me chuckle.




I look at it this way, Those spells were basic spells, when he does a more complex spell he'll do so.
I do agree it's a bit HP though to hear the words. As far as being rushed I would agree, but then again sadly they will always do so because you had to keep the audience's attention I don't see him being a mutant either he just had to open his eyes & look outside the box once he accepted looking out said box he quickly became who he was meant to be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-15-2016, 11:34 AM
 
2,645 posts, read 870,673 times
Reputation: 1583
Doctor Strange's Creator Will Not See You Now -- Vulture
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-15-2016, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
3,932 posts, read 1,837,478 times
Reputation: 8729
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
Thanks for posting the link to that article! What a sad story. It sounds like Mr. Ditko went the way of Dave Sim, who slowly went off the rails toward the end of Cerberus the Aardvark's run (to the book's detriment).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $99,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Entertainment and Arts > Movies

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:17 AM.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top