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Did you miss the part where I said that I was mostly talking about mainstream cineplex movies which includes modern comedies, action films, and even tent pole films. Plan 9 from Outer Space and the other Ed Wood films were indie flicks that were far from the norm. I consider the golden age of film maturing into greatness from 70s to 90s-early 2000s.
I think the point of contention we are having is that you think I'm just talking about the content of all films but I'm mostly talking about the mainstream. The business has totally changed in that you have a plethora of ways to find good films and they are coming out, but as far as the cineplex experience and what's considered good in the main; the bar has been set quite low. This isn't me trying to be iconoclastic or critical to be cool, but compare the blockbusters like Ghostbusters, Beverly Hills Cop, Predator, etc to the Fast N Furious series or Transformers, etc. I recently rewatched the original Independence Day which was the mindless blockbuster of its time and it was more coherent and told a better story than the sequel released last year. These films were the fun movies of the summer while the fall and winter movies were Fargo and Michael Clayton. Now all movies are the fun summer blockbusters year round. If you want good films you turn to other mediums; Netflix, HBO, Amazon, smaller theaters, etc.
I agree with you and think we are saying the same thing but you're misreading what I'm saying, possibly because im not saying it well enough, I apologize. You're right that we live in an era where good films are still being made, I'd disagree that many good films are being made but good films still exist, it's just not in the mainstream as much anymore. Big studios rarely want to risk their money on anything but a tent pole movie.
I don't think any two decades has had as much general release shlock as the 70s and 80s.
An article I think I read in Variety or the Hollywood Reporter stated that if the trend of tent pole movies continue the dominate the cineplex, good films will become more and more of a niche and will be seen in the future the way we see people going to the Opera today. That doesn't seem that far off, IMO. I mean I tell people that one of my favorite films is Kiss of Spider Woman and they look at me as though I said I love Pagliacci. I mean my film knowledge is pretty basic, I would be a laughing stock to a sophomore in film school. I just like the good mainstream movies of yesteryear, films I just assumed everyone knew but I'm always shocked at people's preferences these days. Films in the main these days are just them park rides.
I don't think any two decades has had as much general release shlock as the 70s and 80s.
Yes but why do you guys keep thinking I'm saying there were no bad films in those years? I'm talking about what was promoted as good back then was actually good. These days the bar has been set lower for most mainstream movies. What's actually good is hyped to an infinite degree. I'm not talking about comparing some obvious schlocky film from the 70s with today's mainstream movies.
You guys don't see the obvious almost intelligence insulting incoherence of some of today's mainstream tent pole films? I'm saying even some of the bad films had some coherence. A lot of the bad films of yesteryear were limited in terms of good acting, poor script, etc but it still relied on the story no matter how bad to sell the film. The film was the product. Today studios blatantly want franchises, toys, sequels, tv shows, push new actresses or actors, a billion dollars, etc. They sacrifice even the most basic coherent story to fit all of the above. The film isn't just the product anymore. They don't even hide it anymore.
Yes but why do you guys keep thinking I'm saying there were no bad films in those years? I'm talking about what was promoted as good back then was actually good. These days the bar has been set lower for most mainstream movies. What's actually good is hyped to an infinite degree. I'm not talking about comparing some obvious schlocky film from the 70s with today's mainstream movies.
I'm talking about the mainstream movies.
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You guys don't see the obvious almost intelligence insulting incoherence of some of today's mainstream tent pole films? I'm saying even some of the bad films had some coherence. A lot of the bad films of yesteryear were limited in terms of good acting, poor script, etc but it still relied on the story no matter how bad to sell the film. The film was the product. Today studios blatantly want franchises, toys, sequels, tv shows, push new actresses or actors, a billion dollars, etc. They sacrifice even the most basic coherent story to fit all of the above. The film isn't just the product anymore. They don't even hide it anymore.
Yes. In the past bad movies were bad for no reason at all...they just didn't know any better. At least today you can get a dandy toy behind a bad movie.
The latest I've read is that the new Power Rangers movie laughably and incoherently pushes Krispy Cream donuts. Joss Whedon the director of the Avengers movies said the studios wanted to add a scene that made no sense whatsoever to promote the Thor sequel. Suicide Squad had the craziest editing of all time.
Looking at all this can it be said that a film can be objectively bad? When someone says that their fav film is Suicide Squad, you couldn't tell that the film is objectively bad?
I think the point of contention we are having is that you think I'm just talking about the content of all films but I'm mostly talking about the mainstream.
The problem is that "mainstream" has broadened beyond your definition. Watching high-quality content at home on a good home theater setup IS mainstream these days, and most adults prefer it to going to the cineplex. So the average cineplex today shows primarily movies that appeal to teens and early-20-somethings (who were never sophisticated movie viewers en mass in ANY generation.)
I don't think any two decades has had as much general release shlock as the 70s and 80s.
I'd say the 50s rivaled the 70s and 80s easily. All those cheap and shoddy horror movies we grow up watching on Creature Features were 50s productions - and they aired in the cineplex for mass audiences. So much for the cineplex of the past being a temple of Great Art!
The problem is that "mainstream" has broadened beyond your definition. Watching high-quality content at home on a good home theater setup IS mainstream these days, and most adults prefer it to going to the cineplex. So the average cineplex today shows primarily movies that appeal to teens and early-20-somethings (who were never sophisticated movie viewers en mass in ANY generation.)
Yes that's what I meant by the cineplex has changed.
I'd say the 50s rivaled the 70s and 80s easily. All those cheap and shoddy horror movies we grow up watching on Creature Features were 50s productions - and they aired in the cineplex for mass audiences. So much for the cineplex of the past being a temple of Great Art!
Yes but the cineplex still showed great films. I don't know why you guys are always going on about the bad films of yesteryear as if I said there weren't any. The point is those movies were bad because of bad acting, poor script, bad directing etc, the film was still the product. These days the bad films can barely even qualify as a coherent film but more of a pastiche of corporate product placement and franchise making with a flimsy story attached to it. The film isn't just the product and it's probably more akin to ride at universal studios. In my original post I said there's always been an undercurrent of bad films but they hardly made their way into the mainstream of good films that were seen as good films, these days people get mad if a film such as Deadpool isn't nominated.
And they still do now, just not as frequently (because the adults who are the audience for those films don't go out to the movies as often as they used to).
I'm a cinemaphile. I'd estimate that of the quality movies I see in the theater as opposed to at home, approximately 50% I see at a mainstream theater, playing right alongside schlock like Power Rangers. (The other 50% I catch at a local art house cinema.)
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I don't know why you guys are always going on about the bad films of yesteryear as if I said there weren't any. The point is those movies were bad because of bad acting, poor script, bad directing etc, the film was still the product. These days the bad films can barely even qualify as a coherent film but more of a pastiche of corporate product placement and franchise making with a flimsy story attached to it. The film isn't just the product and it's probably more akin to ride at universal studios.
You can blame Star Wars for that; it's the movie that showed the studios that tie-in merchandise could be insanely profitable. Prior to that, studios just didn't know how much money there was to be made from tie-ins and (later) product placement. Believe me, if they had, they'd have been doing it far earlier than 1977. Hollywood has ALWAYS been about making money first and foremost; art has always come in second.
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In my original post I said there's always been an undercurrent of bad films but they hardly made their way into the mainstream of good films that were seen as good films...
But there was never a time when there was consensus on what constituted a "good film." Do some reading on the history of the Oscars if you don't believe me. And in the past, films like Wild Strawberries (if it ever even made it to your town, which was doubtful) and Lawrence of Arabia played in the very same movie theater that also showed Beach Blanket Bingo and Night of the Lepus.
There has always bee a wide range of quality in cinema. What's changing now is mostly how films are being distributed, and the degree of access the average person has to indie movies, foreign films, and the classic films of yesteryear courtesy of VHS, DVDs and streaming.
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