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If a comic book issue sells 30,000 copies, that's considered good business these days. But it's absurdly tiny compared to what movies do. Meaning that "comic book fans" don't particularly amount to much with regard to movie fan consideration.
And I care, why? This not a thread to prove how bad the Star Wars movies are, just that some of us long time fans do not like them and/or their direction. You and Mr. Taylor are so bothered by this that you must throw numbers at us to prove how wrong our OPINIONS are. Do you see the fallacy in this? I mean if you use that logic than what about the billions of people who didn't see the Star Wars movies? Does that prove that they were awful?
And I care, why? This not a thread to prove how bad the Star Wars movies are, just that some of us long time fans do not like them and/or their direction. You and Mr. Taylor are so bothered by this that you must throw numbers at us to prove how wrong our OPINIONS are. Do you see the fallacy in this? I mean if you use that logic than what about the billions of people who didn't see the Star Wars movies? Does that prove that they were awful?
I'm not trying to say that your opinions are "wrong," because de gustibus non est disputandum.
I'm pointing out that in Hollywood calculations, the opinions of comic book fans don't matter.
So how, in your opinion, did TLJ fail on a basic story level?
It didn't. These internet critics have learned to couch their subjective opinions in objective terms, such as ranting pretentiously about "plot holes" for scenes they didn't like or about "basic storytelling elements" for plot points they didn't like.
Personally, I think that the creators of the new Star Wars movies are doing their best to extend this franchise, and I think that they're doing a pretty good job. Because after all, how do you take: 'and the good guys won and they lived happily ever after' and extend that into a new franchise and new conflicts and new storylines that befit the name "Star Wars"?
However, in my opinion, I think that for the naysayers(who are generally of an older generation because I've never heard of anyone from the younger generation say that they don't like the new Star Wars movies), it's really more of a matter 'us'(of the older generation) having had our Star Wars... and we just don't like these new characters and these new storylines... and the dredging up of the old 'Empire'(now the First Order) vs 'the Rebels' conflict, which seemed to have been resolved in 'our' Star Wars movies.
My experience is the opposite. I've heard a couple of younger people complaining about the fact that the new movies unravel much of the resolution of the original trilogy. People my age that I've discussed it with - I was 9 when the original movie came out - appreciate the fact that the new movies are more reminiscent of the originals.
So how, in your opinion, did TLJ fail on a basic story level?
Bad writing.
Monologuing.The Incredibles parodied this to perfection. Never have your villain explain his evil plan by walking around monologuing for no reason.
Making the villain an idiot doesn't make your hero smart. Poe Dameron's opening scene makes no sense at all, either in terms of basic logic or in terms of the rules establish in the SW universe. First of all, he does an obvious bluff based on a Verizon commercial, which the villain falls for. Then, a single fighter manages to take out the defenses of a destroyer. Because ... ? Well, because the script says so, I guess.
Motivate your characters. Why is Kylo Ren evil? Because he is "filled with the Dark Side." No temptation to turn to the Dark Side. He's just full of it. Why does the Resistance need Luke to come back? I've seen both movies, and I'm still not sure. Maybe because one Jedi can defeat entire armies? I dunno. Nothing in the previous movies established that. Quite the contrary actually.
Know your characters. Luke in this series is the opposite of everything he was in the original trilogy. It's like his entire character arc was erased. And the entire struggle of the Rebellion was ultimately pointless. And what was Snoke's purpose in this storyline? Not much at all apparently. You could have removed him entirely and hardly noticed. His presence and actions were meaningless, except to prompt a cool fight scene. Ditto with the big silver stormtrooper whose name I've already forgotten.
Bad dialogue. The purpose of dialogue is for characters to speak to each other. But characters in the THE LAST JEDI constantly stand around telling each other what they already know because they aren't really talking to each other. They're talking to the audience.
Your character's choices have to matter. Poe's entire storyline in this movie amounts to nothing. Turns out his conflict for the whole movie was motivated on a mistake. And a mistake he doesn't have to pay for.
Why is Rey in this movie? What is her personal quest? Two movies in, and we're still not sure.
Why is Kylo Ren in this movie? What is his personal quest? To be evil? Really? That's it?
Monologuing.The Incredibles parodied this to perfection. Never have your villain explain his evil plan by walking around monologuing for no reason.
Making the villain an idiot doesn't make your hero smart. Poe Dameron's opening scene makes no sense at all, either in terms of basic logic or in terms of the rules establish in the SW universe. First of all, he does an obvious bluff based on a Verizon commercial, which the villain falls for. Then, a single fighter manages to take out the defenses of a destroyer. Because ... ? Well, because the script says so, I guess.
Motivate your characters. Why is Kylo Ren evil? Because he is "filled with the Dark Side." No temptation to turn to the Dark Side. He's just full of it. Why does the Resistance need Luke to come back? I've seen both movies, and I'm still not sure. Maybe because one Jedi can defeat entire armies? I dunno. Nothing in the previous movies established that. Quite the contrary actually.
Know your characters. Luke in this series is the opposite of everything he was in the original trilogy. It's like his entire character arc was erased. And the entire struggle of the Rebellion was ultimately pointless. And what was Snoke's purpose in this storyline? Not much at all apparently. You could have removed him entirely and hardly noticed. His presence and actions were meaningless, except to prompt a cool fight scene. Ditto with the big silver stormtrooper whose name I've already forgotten.
Bad dialogue. The purpose of dialogue is for characters to speak to each other. But characters in the THE LAST JEDI constantly stand around telling each other what they already know because they aren't really talking to each other. They're talking to the audience.
Your character's choices have to matter. Poe's entire storyline in this movie amounts to nothing. Turns out his conflict for the whole movie was motivated on a mistake. And a mistake he doesn't have to pay for.
Why is Rey in this movie? What is her personal quest? Two movies in, and we're still not sure.
Why is Kylo Ren in this movie? What is his personal quest? To be evil? Really? That's it?
C'mon, Mark, don't be such a curmudgeon.
The purpose of the movie was to Show Cool Star Wars Stuff, which is apparently all most people want.
Just like in the last scene of Star Trek: Discovery, apparently the entire purpose of the entire series to show a shot of the USS Enterprise in the final scene...that alone appears to have satisfied the audience, despite the literary and moral failures of the episode.
Monologuing.The Incredibles parodied this to perfection. Never have your villain explain his evil plan by walking around monologuing for no reason.
Making the villain an idiot doesn't make your hero smart. Poe Dameron's opening scene makes no sense at all, either in terms of basic logic or in terms of the rules establish in the SW universe. First of all, he does an obvious bluff based on a Verizon commercial, which the villain falls for. Then, a single fighter manages to take out the defenses of a destroyer. Because ... ? Well, because the script says so, I guess.
Motivate your characters. Why is Kylo Ren evil? Because he is "filled with the Dark Side." No temptation to turn to the Dark Side. He's just full of it. Why does the Resistance need Luke to come back? I've seen both movies, and I'm still not sure. Maybe because one Jedi can defeat entire armies? I dunno. Nothing in the previous movies established that. Quite the contrary actually.
Know your characters. Luke in this series is the opposite of everything he was in the original trilogy. It's like his entire character arc was erased. And the entire struggle of the Rebellion was ultimately pointless. And what was Snoke's purpose in this storyline? Not much at all apparently. You could have removed him entirely and hardly noticed. His presence and actions were meaningless, except to prompt a cool fight scene. Ditto with the big silver stormtrooper whose name I've already forgotten.
Bad dialogue. The purpose of dialogue is for characters to speak to each other. But characters in the THE LAST JEDI constantly stand around telling each other what they already know because they aren't really talking to each other. They're talking to the audience.
Your character's choices have to matter. Poe's entire storyline in this movie amounts to nothing. Turns out his conflict for the whole movie was motivated on a mistake. And a mistake he doesn't have to pay for.
Why is Rey in this movie? What is her personal quest? Two movies in, and we're still not sure.
Why is Kylo Ren in this movie? What is his personal quest? To be evil? Really? That's it?
This in a nutshell. The entire movie basically didn't even feel like a Star Wars movie, but just a Marvel movie with Star Wars skin. I can add to this:
Pointless characters. What was the point of Finn and Rose in this movie? Their sidequest really didn't make any sense or have a reason for being in the movie. Also, Finn grew as a character in TFA. He went from a defected Storm Trooper, realized what he was doing was wrong, but he still had a character growth to go through. Then, when TLJ starts...he's ready to run again?!? Also, Finn had a major role in TFA and belittled to nothing in this movie to be with the Asian girl for "diversity" as the tokens. Why? Same with that Holdo lady...we've never heard of her ever and then we're supposed to believe she's been one of the ones in charge of the Resistance out of nowhere? Why not just use her role with Ackbar? Her whole arc just felt thrown in the movie.
What exactly is at stake? In the prequels, the Republic was at stake, so was Padme and the twins. In the OT, the Rebellion was at stake against the Rebellion, while Luke had a hero's journey to confront his evil space wizard father. In the ST we get....Rey? Discovering she has the force? And she turns out to be a super Jedi with zero training? Then we have Kylo who's point is to rule the First Order....but how big Is the First Order? Where did they come from? Episode 8 ended where it started, so what is the point?
Making the villain weak. There is no real threat from Kylo Ren. He's just some emo kid who's torn and whines between the good and the bad. But I don't feel like he's a real threat, and now that he's in charge of the First Order...okay? I guess?
And I care, why? This not a thread to prove how bad the Star Wars movies are. . .
Well, for some people it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazertrek50
just that some of us long time fans do not like them and/or their direction. You and Mr. Taylor are so bothered by this that you must throw numbers at us to prove how wrong our OPINIONS are. Do you see the fallacy in this? I mean if you use that logic than what about the billions of people who didn't see the Star Wars movies? Does that prove that they were awful?
Not bothered, but I may have misunderstood what you were saying. But that's fine that you, your friends, and comic book fans have the opinion that you have about the direction that the Star Wars and the Marvel movies are going into. Although, as far as the Marvel movies go, I've only seen one movie(and not counting the GotG movies, which by nature come from irreverent and funny comic book source material) that took a comedic direction... and don't understand why you think that all other Marvel comic book movies are going to go in that direction.
It didn't. These internet critics have learned to couch their subjective opinions in objective terms, such as ranting pretentiously about "plot holes" for scenes they didn't like or about "basic storytelling elements" for plot points they didn't like.
Ha-ha-ha! Nice post, EastFlatbush. And I had to rep you for that one.
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