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Old 05-20-2018, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Texas
15,636 posts, read 14,692,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatblueheron View Post
Didn't see the film but the book was wonderful....should I not bother seeing the movie..?


IMO, the movie was good. I loved the book and liked the movie. I think you would enjoy the movie.
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Old 05-20-2018, 03:00 PM
 
2,944 posts, read 964,578 times
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Oh okay thanks, I know a geisha is not a prostitute, and that had no bearing on how I felt about the story. but I should understand the movie, and it's the movies job to explain the world that it is set in. I don't feel I should have to read a book to understand the movie, because there are several other movies written from books, where you don't have to do that.

I just feel I need a reason to get behind the characters' goals, even if the goals are petty as I thought they were here, and the movie needed to give me a reason to be get behind them.

As for this thing about whether or not a person is a half geisha, full geisha, this was also another problem with the movie, as it did not explain at all, how this ranking system worked, or who decides these things.

Plus these really goodlooking desirable women who could get rich guys easily if they wanted to, so they never explain why they feel they need to take on this desperate geisha persona to do so.

Even in real research, they do not explain why is it in Japan, being a gorgeous woman is not enough, to seduce a rich man, and you need all this extra training on top of it. So why is that in Japan, then are so difficult that this is needed? So far I cannot get an answer on that in any of the research.

I read on what geishas are and what they do, but they don't say what it is in Japanese men that they are so difficult, that it caused this whole geisha culture to happen, or whatever caused it to happen.

The women in the movie talk about how they want to please this man so bad, or that man so bad, so there must be some sort of man-hungry angle to do this whole thing, which the research doesn't explain so far.

Last edited by ironpony; 05-20-2018 at 03:24 PM..
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Elysium
5,805 posts, read 3,087,683 times
Reputation: 4037
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
Oh okay thanks, I know a geisha is not a prostitute, and that had no bearing on how I felt about the story. but I should understand the movie, and it's the movies job to explain the world that it is set in. I don't feel I should have to read a book to understand the movie, because there are several other movies written from books, where you don't have to do that.

I just feel I need a reason to get behind the characters' goals, even if the goals are petty as I thought they were here, and the movie needed to give me a reason to be get behind them.

As for this thing about whether or not a person is a half geisha, full geisha, this was also another problem with the movie, as it did not explain at all, how this ranking system worked, or who decides these things.

Plus these really goodlooking desirable women who could get rich guys easily if they wanted to, so they never explain why they feel they need to take on this desperate geisha persona to do so.

Even in real research, they do not explain why is it in Japan, being a gorgeous woman is not enough, to seduce a rich man, and you need all this extra training on top of it. So why is that in Japan, then are so difficult that this is needed? So far I cannot get an answer on that in any of the research.

I read on what geishas are and what they do, but they don't say what it is in Japanese men that they are so difficult, that it caused this whole geisha culture to happen, or whatever caused it to happen.

The women in the movie talk about how they want to please this man so bad, or that man so bad, so there must be some sort of man-hungry angle to do this whole thing, which the research doesn't explain so far.
Give up the prejudice that physical beauty of the woman is always the primary motivator for choosing a mate. Familial and social connections are often the prime motivator for choosing something beyond a short term sex partner
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:44 PM
 
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Yeah okay, but why is it that in Japan being a geisha is so high as for as social standards go? The movie doesn't get into what makes them so special.
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Old 05-21-2018, 01:21 AM
 
Location: on the wind
4,131 posts, read 1,535,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
Yeah okay, but why is it that in Japan being a geisha is so high as for as social standards go? The movie doesn't get into what makes them so special.
As has been said already, geishas were honored for their artistic skills and their creativity in using them; as musicians, dancers, actresses, not just charming attractive companions at important feasts or events. Consider...it's nice to hire some local jazz musician to entertain at your party, but to have Louis Armstrong or Billy Joel entertain at your party would be a serious social coup. If you can get Richard Burton to give a reading of Hamlet for your guests you have CLOUT. To have a respected (and expensive) geisha appear at a man's event gave him status because of HER reputation, not his.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:40 AM
 
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Okay thanks, but there still more questions than answers. What makes a geisha violinist for example, more of a celebrity compared to a non-geisha violinist who is just as musically talented?

You used Richard Burton and other celebrities as an analogy. Are you saying that geishas were high celebrities back then? If so, the movie fails to portray it this way. We do not see any reporters taking pictures of geishas at event shows, as hundreds of fans cheer them on a want autographs. None of the characters in the movie recognized these geishas and wanted autographs for example.

So the movie fails to portray them as popular celebrities, if this was the case.

And why would geishas take on proteges if the competition was so fierce back then? I found this to be a plot hole in the movie, the way it was portrayed. These women in the story, are hugely desperate, and we are talking hugely desperate. So if they are that desperate, than why are they taking on proteges, since they will increase their competition? Desperate people do not want competition, so why do they purposefully create it for themselves, and risk shooting themselves in the foot?
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
21,464 posts, read 22,698,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
Okay thanks, but there still more questions than answers. What makes a geisha violinist for example, more of a celebrity compared to a non-geisha violinist who is just as musically talented?

You used Richard Burton and other celebrities as an analogy. Are you saying that geishas were high celebrities back then? If so, the movie fails to portray it this way. We do not see any reporters taking pictures of geishas at event shows, as hundreds of fans cheer them on a want autographs. None of the characters in the movie recognized these geishas and wanted autographs for example.

So the movie fails to portray them as popular celebrities, if this was the case.
You can't compare 21st century Western celebrity culture to the isolated, still very feudal culture of early 20th-century Japan.

Quote:
And why would geishas take on proteges if the competition was so fierce back then? I found this to be a plot hole in the movie, the way it was portrayed. These women in the story, are hugely desperate, and we are talking hugely desperate. So if they are that desperate, than why are they taking on proteges, since they will increase their competition? Desperate people do not want competition, so why do they purposefully create it for themselves, and risk shooting themselves in the foot?
Because when a mentor gets a cut of a protege's earnings, she gets to work less and still earns more.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:59 AM
 
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Yeah but then all the proteges all desperate compete against each other, to the point where they not loose their own insanity but backstab each other as a result. Why would a mentor want to create that type of contest, and have that kind of drama, just to do less work?

Last edited by ironpony; 05-21-2018 at 11:16 AM..
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:39 AM
 
Location: on the wind
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Okay thanks, but there still more questions than answers. What makes a geisha violinist for example, more of a celebrity compared to a non-geisha violinist who is just as musically talented?

A successful geisha house had the resources, the financial backing of sponsors, and the motivation to create that outstanding artist. Then they could exploit them for their own profit. The chance that an independent violinist had the same resources and access to training on their own was a lot lower.

You used Richard Burton and other celebrities as an analogy. Are you saying that geishas were high celebrities back then? If so, the movie fails to portray it this way. We do not see any reporters taking pictures of geishas at event shows, as hundreds of fans cheer them on a want autographs. None of the characters in the movie recognized these geishas and wanted autographs for example.

So the movie fails to portray them as popular celebrities, if this was the case.


It didn't? You must have watched a different movie than I did. Seemed obvious to me. The dance/acting celebration they trained for and then showcased was advertised, anticipated, and attended by crowds. Don't you remember the large posters announcing who was going to perform? Oh yeah, maybe I got more out of the movie because I read the book!

And why would geishas take on proteges if the competition was so fierce back then? I found this to be a plot hole in the movie, the way it was portrayed. These women in the story, are hugely desperate, and we are talking hugely desperate. So if they are that desperate, than why are they taking on proteges, since they will increase their competition? Desperate people do not want competition, so why do they purposefully create it for themselves, and risk shooting themselves in the foot?

The houses took risks on new girls because they were always searching for that something different, unique, unexpected. Then they molded it into a superstar. A successful geisha didn't always have a choice about proteges. Their house could apply a lot of pressure on them to train them. If the protege was successful, they gained some status because of the new talent they helped create and probably got a percentage of the fees too. Don't you remember the main character's eye color? It was rare....and something that would be remembered and desired. Really, it all reminded me of the fighting over and grooming of college athletes. They are risky investments that might or might not pay off for the houses. Young girls were traded, bought and sold in order to get an edge on that competition. The houses invested time and money on them with the financial backing of male sponsors, and businesses. If their investment didn't pan out the girls were relegated to servant roles in order to pay off their debts. If the risk paid off, the house gained reputation as well as a big percentage of the successful geisha's fees.

Can't really explain it any clearer. Read the book.

Last edited by Parnassia; 05-21-2018 at 11:50 AM..
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:14 PM
 
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Okay thanks.

But I guess part of my enjoyment of the movie was hindered is that I feel that the actresses playing the women were way too goodlooking. I mean it's okay to have one or two, but all the geisha's in the movie, accept for "mother" are really goodlooking. Michelle Yeoh and Gong Li are smoking hot. So it felt it was kind of exploitative or shallow that they would get such goodlooking women to portray the characters.

So if this movie is set in a world where women were in desperate times and had to resort to these desperate things to get a man, why do they act so happy about it then? Michelle Yeoh's character and the main character are so happy to embark on this mentor/protege relationship, and are smiling and the protagonist think's that becoming a geisha, is such a great idealistic thing, when it is desperate times and not idealistic at all.

If these are such desperate times for women, then why are they acting so happy about it a lot of the time? I mean it seems to me that they tried to make it all an enchanting fairy tale, which threw me off a lot with the characters, when perhaps they should have taken an approach more like The Grapes of Wrath, and just have the characters be more depressed and realist about things, cause then their motivations, would make more sense, at least to me.

I guess I just felt this movie would have been more dramatically effective, if it was in a set in a geisha culture that seemed more desperate, and that wasn't such a Cinderella story, with all these supermodel worthy geishas.

But why is Japanese culture all happy, about this lifestyle? I mean the woman is kidnapped as a child, separated from her sister by these people, and then her lifelong mission, is to become one of these same people, and is all too happy to do it. If that is part of Japanese culture, it comes off as very contradictory, and I just don't understand it.

I mean maybe it's some kind of stockholm syndrome but they don't really go into it much in the movie I felt. I mean I understand she is pressured into it because of the time period, but why be so happy about it, when you are being forced?
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