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I saw the film and liked it. Wouldn't mind discussing it with other folks who's seen it.
Not sure if I need need a spoiler tag for a spoiler thread but here it goes.
The movie that I want to see for the next installment is one where Kylo Ren is portrayed as a sympathetic figure who tries hard to develop a third way where force users try to achieve balance in themselves. He would still be autocratic but his First Order would do nice things like abolishing droid slavery.
Unfortunately I don't think that's the film JJ Abrams will make.
What's the back story on Snoke? Is there something in the Expanded Universe?
They still have no idea what to do with Finn.
The wrong twin died. I hope they don't try to "Tarkin" Leia.
More Force Ghosts please.
Last edited by Beretta; 12-28-2017 at 11:39 AM..
Reason: If it is a spoiler thread then no spoiler tag is needed; removed spoiler tag
Nah, I don't think you need a spoiler tag. I don't want to use one so I'll announce: DO NOT READ MY POST IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS FOR THE LAST JEDI
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I posted some of this in the other thread but I am not sure it's really one for discussion, so I'll re-post some of it here...
I liked TLJ more than Force Awakens, but less than the original trilogy. So that means I liked it a fair amount. I admit I am predisposed to like anything Rian Johnson does. I really liked Brick and I think Looper is fantastic. If anything, this is his least-good movie that I have seen (I haven't yet seen the Brothers Bloom), but I understand he was restricted by Lucasfilm and Disney.
I've been reading some common complaints about the movie, which include:
-Snoke's background
I do think there is more on this in the novelization, but I would have liked to know more about Snoke. Was he actually a powerful Dark Side user, or was he a poser? But really -- he created the connection between Kylo Ren and Rey, yet it seems to exist after he died. So, did he lie about that?
-Canto Bight/Finn and Rose subplot
I liked the 'moral' of the subplot -- they fail. Nothing good results from it. In fact, it ruined Admiral Holdo's plan to get the transporters out discreetly. But did we need to spend all that time on it? Just seemed to me Johnson didn't know what to do with Finn.
This movie excelled with the Kylo Ren, Rey and Luke story. The Holdo/Poe/Leia one was a bit confusing but it was fine. But the Finn and Rose adventure brought it down. It really could have been much shorter or cut out altogether to achieve the same message of "failure."
-Luke's actions
Many people have a hard time seeing Luke even thinking about killing his nephew, regardless of how dark/evil he is. Luke, when he was younger, didn't give up on his own father, even though Vader was grade A evil, and was willing to die to redeem him. Still, Luke is human and I kind of get why he might think for just one second to strike down Ben Solo. Personally I loved the Rashomon-style flashbacks that led Rey to see the truth.
But...was it in character for Luke, really? I am not sure. Still, I love the implications behind it. Kylo Ren is the one Sith/Dark Side user we see who truly is emotional. We always heard that Sith give in to their emotions, but mostly we see Vader as a cool cucumber (except sometimes rageful) and the Emperor is straight up greedy and power hungry. Ben Solo, on the other hand, has no control over his emotions and clearly feels very conflicted. Snoke somehow got to him while he was training and convinced him Luke would turn on him. In Luke's split-second action of turning on his light saber, he showed Ben that Snoke was right. That was what turned Ben to the Dark Side and was Luke's tragic action. Story-wise I really think that's cool, even if it doesn't really fit the Luke we know.
Sorry, I have ~thoughts~ on this movie so this got long
I don't get what happened in the end. When they fired every weapon at Luke and he was still there, it should have been obvious he was just a projection. But Kylo went down to fight him anyway. Was it said before that a Jedi could project an image of himself?
Did Luke just die up there on the hill at the end? Did he just die because he wanted to? That was it??
Poe said Luke was "fighting" Ren to distract the bad guys, so they went through the cliff and saw Rey using the Force. Is that what Luke wanted them to see?
I don't get what happened in the end. When they fired every weapon at Luke and he was still there, it should have been obvious he was just a projection. But Kylo went down to fight him anyway. Was it said before that a Jedi could project an image of himself?
Did Luke just die up there on the hill at the end? Did he just die because he wanted to? That was it??
Poe said Luke was "fighting" Ren to distract the bad guys, so they went through the cliff and saw Rey using the Force. Is that what Luke wanted them to see?
I think they thought Luke just used the Force "normally" to deflect the bullets, though yes it ended up being a hint he wasn't there. And no, this is a new ability in the films, though it was used in comics in the '90s. I like it, personally. The Force is a power that should be limitless depending on your strength, aptitude and determination. I would like it if it got even weirder!
Luke did an Obi-Wan and disappeared/became one with the Force/died or whatever vernacular. I think the Force projection did it. I was confused for a moment too. I also wonder what the point was of projecting himself at all if he was going to die anyway...? unless he wouldn't have been able to reach the Resistance if he went physically? I haven't seen the answer to that.
I don't really understand your last question. Luke was distracting Ren, along with Hux and the AT-ATs because they were stuck there while the fight happened.
I think they thought Luke just used the Force "normally" to deflect the bullets, though yes it ended up being a hint he wasn't there. And no, this is a new ability in the films, though it was used in comics in the '90s. I like it, personally. The Force is a power that should be limitless depending on your strength, aptitude and determination. I would like it if it got even weirder!
Luke did an Obi-Wan and disappeared/became one with the Force/died or whatever vernacular. I think the Force projection did it. I was confused for a moment too. I also wonder what the point was of projecting himself at all if he was going to die anyway...? unless he wouldn't have been able to reach the Resistance if he went physically? I haven't seen the answer to that.
I don't really understand your last question. Luke was distracting Ren, along with Hux and the AT-ATs because they were stuck there while the fight happened.
Luke probably couldn't survive all that firepower and if he had gone himself so he wouldn't have bought as much time. Besides this way he gets to see the binary sunset for one last time.
I don't get what happened in the end. When they fired every weapon at Luke and he was still there, it should have been obvious he was just a projection. But Kylo went down to fight him anyway. Was it said before that a Jedi could project an image of himself?
Did Luke just die up there on the hill at the end? Did he just die because he wanted to? That was it??
Poe said Luke was "fighting" Ren to distract the bad guys, so they went through the cliff and saw Rey using the Force. Is that what Luke wanted them to see?
Luke was not just a holographic projection while doing this though, if you remember at the end of it, Luke sitting on a rock like he was in deep meditation, he was using the force to basically create a temporary clone of himself, for this purpose.
If were to draw up a list of everything wrong with this movie, it would be pages long. This wasn't just a bad STAR WARS movie, it was a shoddy movie in general. So here's the high and low points:
WHAT IS GOOD ABOUT THE MOVIE
The leads. Mark Hamill's best performance ever. Daisy Ridley shines. Oscar Isaac is great (even though his character is badly written). Ditto with Adam Driver. Ditto with John Boyega and his sidekick. It's hard to tell if Laura Dern and Carrie Fisher are actually good in the movie, because their characters are such a mess. Benicio Del Toro is just ... weird.
The kids. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed those three slave kids. In fact, I probably would have liked the movie more had they cut everything with Poe, Finn, Leia, and the Alliance and given us a story about Luke, Rey, and those kids.
The cinematography. This is a beautiful movie to look at.
Rey's parents. Exactly the right decision.
WHAT IS BAD ABOUT THE MOVIE
Again, chapters could be written on this, but in short:
The basic premise of 3/4 of the plot makes no sense at all. What do the bad guys want? Why? How could idiots this incompetent actually command a military? What do the good guys want? Why?
Most of the plot is lifted straight out of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and RETURN OF THE JEDI.
Whoever wrote Luke Skywalker's role in this movie COMPLETELY misunderstood his character arc in Episodes IV, V, and VI.
The Alliance is led by idiots. The First Order is led by bigger idiots.
The dialogue goes beyond bad in places. It is actually hilariously bad in places.
The humor. I don't mind humor in STAR WARS or in action movies in general. But the humor in this movie was cartoony and false.
Porgs. Only in this movie to sell toys. They serve no other purpose.
Snoke and Phasma. I have no idea why they were even in episodes VII and VIII. They accomplished nothing.
If were to draw up a list of everything wrong with this movie, it would be pages long. This wasn't just a bad STAR WARS movie, it was a shoddy movie in general. So here's the high and low points:
WHAT IS GOOD ABOUT THE MOVIE
The leads. Mark Hamill's best performance ever. Daisy Ridley shines. Oscar Isaac is great (even though his character is badly written). Ditto with Adam Driver. Ditto with John Boyega and his sidekick. It's hard to tell if Laura Dern and Carrie Fisher are actually good in the movie, because their characters are such a mess. Benicio Del Toro is just ... weird.
Tran outshone Boyega, but they really weren't given much to do, and the whole sequence on the planet with the casino and the monster horsies was a bore. I think Disney forced all that in.
That kind of stuff bothers me because time is treated in Star Wars like real time on Earth, and distances are negligible. We get the sense that Rey is with Luke for weeks. We think Finn and Rose are gone for 48 hours. Yet everything aboard the cruisers seems to be taking place over hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S.
The kids. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed those three slave kids. In fact, I probably would have liked the movie more had they cut everything with Poe, Finn, Leia, and the Alliance and given us a story about Luke, Rey, and those kids.
Are you referring to the final scene, before the credits? Chopped nuts on the whipped cream we already had to wade through to get to the cake. You want half a movie about three kids being reared to join the Alliance?
The thing about Leia floating was ridiculous, although a guy did that in "2001" - but it was a much shorter time and looked totally real.
Another good part was Holdo using hyperspace - everything went silent, which seemed appropriate.
I don't like the idea that Luke made a mistake 30 years earlier and went and hid. He should have owned up to his actions and did something about Kylo. When Obi-wan and Yoda made a mistake, they went into exile, but they were just waiting for the right time to re-enter the story.
Who was Snoke, anyway? How did he get the scars? Was he once a normal human? The writers just wanted a character like Palpatine so that's what they came up with.
The Yoda scene was bad because it wasn't clear what happened, and he laughed too much.
I wonder if writers sat down and decided the whole arc of episodes 7-9, and then wrote each one. If they didn't and one guy wrote 7 and then passed it off to the next guy, that's silly.
Another good part was Holdo using hyperspace - everything went silent, which seemed appropriate.
Easily one of the best things, concept and image-wise, in the movie. You were expecting a massive sound, and you got the opposite.
Of course, it undermined how there was enough of the ship intact long enough for Finn and Phasma to have a cheesy showdown. But that's Star Wars.
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But really -- he created the connection between Kylo Ren and Rey, yet it seems to exist after he died. So, did he lie about that?
