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Old 01-08-2019, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
5,680 posts, read 3,941,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty View Post
Song writing is not the art that it used to be. Mostly because the public's taste in music has changed. Taylor Swift has written some pretty lame songs. IMO most country songwriters are being pushed into writing the same song over and over again. The era of popular song writing ended around the time of Becker/ Fagan and Hall and Oats. They were among the last people to go to work every day, sit at a desk and write songs for a label.

Singers write their own material today because the royalties are higher not because they can write. I have great respect for a great singer who knows there are people out there who are as good at writing hits songs as they are singing them. I think we are in an era where the producer is the king maker and not the singer or the song writer.
Erm you never heard of John William Lowery (John 5) he's not only the lead guitarist and co-writer for Rob Zombie, but has written songs for Rod Stewart, Avril Lavigne, Marilyn Manson (when he was in Mansons band), Rob Halford, Lynryd Skynyrd, Meatloaf, Garbage, FeFe Dobson, Scorpions, Paul Stanley, Halestorm, Filter etc.

He's a staff writer for Chysalis as well. So yeah he does go to work every day and sits at a desk writing songs for a label (Chrysalis).
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Old 01-08-2019, 08:54 AM
 
71 posts, read 18,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Erm you never heard of John William Lowery (John 5) he's not only the lead guitarist and co-writer for Rob Zombie, but has written songs for Rod Stewart, Avril Lavigne, Marilyn Manson (when he was in Mansons band), Rob Halford, Lynryd Skynyrd, Meatloaf, Garbage, FeFe Dobson, Scorpions, Paul Stanley, Halestorm, Filter etc.

He's a staff writer for Chysalis as well. So yeah he does go to work every day and sits at a desk writing songs for a label (Chrysalis).
YES! Red Square Black. John's early solo EP is stellar... but like I said, all you retards ignore what's good, so yeah keep doing that I guess.

Last edited by Weaponized_Funk; 01-08-2019 at 09:19 AM..
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:01 AM
 
9,052 posts, read 9,881,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weaponized_Funk View Post
You mean Max Martin? Shut up, grandpa. God I hate you. You got zero idea what you're talking about.
A guitar teacher who has taught guitar for over 25 years told me any 9 year old who can't play guitar can be be taught to play any pop or rock song over the summer. One college kid who never played guitar in his life bought a guitar and learned to play his girl friend's favorite song for her birthday In a matter of weeks. So much for song writing.

He turns on the radio to any country, metal or pop radio station and plays along with any song that comes on after never hearing it before and admits he's just an average player. That's why he has to reach back pretty far to find songs that are worthy. He's swears that unless you teach guitar you don't know how simple most songs are to play. Because kids come in wanting to learn some song like its the holy grail and in 30 minutes they are playing it.
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Old 01-08-2019, 11:09 AM
 
9,052 posts, read 9,881,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Erm you never heard of John William Lowery (John 5) he's not only the lead guitarist and co-writer for Rob Zombie, but has written songs for Rod Stewart, Avril Lavigne, Marilyn Manson (when he was in Mansons band), Rob Halford, Lynryd Skynyrd, Meatloaf, Garbage, FeFe Dobson, Scorpions, Paul Stanley, Halestorm, Filter etc.

He's a staff writer for Chysalis as well. So yeah he does go to work every day and sits at a desk writing songs for a label (Chrysalis).
I have a good friend who is a song writer. He has had songs in the top ten and has Grammy awards or nominations. Having said that, the songs he writes for himself are many times more complex and higher musical quality than the ones he makes money on. When a song makes someone a lot of money that means its a song with popular appeal not necessarily a good song.

IMO a good pop song writer (since about 1830) is composer who can put; melodic, rhythmic, lyrical and harmonic puzzle pieces together in a manner that is not too complex for the public to understand and reproduce without a lot of musical ability. All the pieces have been used before in other songs so most pop songs are derivative.

Something I have found is musicians produce higher quality music after they have enough fame and money. I think Purcell was a good song writer.
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Old 01-08-2019, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
5,680 posts, read 3,941,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty View Post
A guitar teacher who has taught guitar for over 25 years told me any 9 year old who can't play guitar can be be taught to play any pop or rock song over the summer. One college kid who never played guitar in his life bought a guitar and learned to play his girl friend's favorite song for her birthday In a matter of weeks. So much for song writing.

He turns on the radio to any country, metal or pop radio station and plays along with any song that comes on after never hearing it before and admits he's just an average player. That's why he has to reach back pretty far to find songs that are worthy. He's swears that unless you teach guitar you don't know how simple most songs are to play. Because kids come in wanting to learn some song like its the holy grail and in 30 minutes they are playing it.
Depends on what you mean "play" (And dollars to donuts he ain't playing along with the song to A7X, Dream Theatre, Coheed, Disturbed, etc. except for maybe the main riff chords [approximated], and the chorus chords). Depends on what's on the radio.

Take "Walk" by Pantera, or "Crazy on You" by Heart.

Can you play a stripped down set of chords that the song uses at tempo in a few weeks? Sure. Can a person learn to play one of those songs note perfect at tempo, in rhythm with exactly the same precision and techniques in a few weeks? No, unless they're one very special person. It takes years to develop the skills, speed, strength and muscle memory to achieve the digital gymnastics of Nancy Wilson or Darrell Abbott, that's no exaggeration, it's common knowledge, any teacher claiming otherwise is selling snake oil, or should be ashamed, because what are those claims doing to his students?

Going way back you'll get some really simple stuff too, Yellow Submarine should take any average guitar student about 15 minutes or less to play from scratch. That's quite some time ago. Indeed for sheer complexity (And wankery) 80s hair metal was some seriously intricate fretwork, and it's carried forward even now with the likes of Marilyn Manson, Rob Zombie, Dream Theatre, and many others (even things like The Arctic Monkeys and Black Keys at times).

First song any electric guitar player should learn...

"Smoke On The Water", nearly 50 years old, written by among others Richie Blackmore, who is one patron saint of guitarists.

The strength of something like Smoke isn't difficulty, it's simplicity (although the phrygian flattened 2nd is adding harmonic complexity in the chorus) , complexity speaks to your head musically speaking, simplicity speaks to your gut. The best songs written are typically simple, the classic I-IV-V progression, is one example, but check out this variety
I-IV-V: The Little Chord Progression That Could

There's also a pretty wide mix of old and new, but that progression is 12 bar blues baby, how old is that? First written records are WC Handy's at the beginning of the 20th century, but it goes way back before those written records.
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Last edited by Gungnir; 01-09-2019 at 04:41 AM..
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Old 01-08-2019, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Keosauqua, Iowa
9,069 posts, read 16,092,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Not sold here. For starters, rock and roll likely wouldn’t have been nearly the big deal it became without Elvis. And I’m thinking no Elvis, no Beatles.
John Lennon said as much.
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Old 01-08-2019, 04:27 PM
 
5,050 posts, read 4,847,528 times
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What about songwriters who aren't performers?


Who would you rather watch performing "Hound Dog" or "Jailhouse Rock", Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller - or Elvis?

How about "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' ", Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil - or The Righteous Brothers?



Some people write, but don't perform.

Some don't write, but they perform.

Some do both.

Plenty of room for all, and nothing to look down on the first two groups over.
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Old 01-08-2019, 04:28 PM
 
993 posts, read 400,399 times
Reputation: 1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I didn't particularly like Elvis, except for a few songs such as "Jailhouse Rock", "In the Ghetto" and "Suspicious Minds."
Okay, I’ll play along. Songs by Elvis I like a lot:

That’s All Right
Good Rockin’ Tonight
Mystery Train
Heartbreak Hotel
Don’t Be Cruel
Hound Dog
All Shook Up
Jailhouse Rock
Stuck On You
(Marie’s the Name) His Latest Flame
Little Sister
Can’t Help Falling in Love
Return to Sender
(You’re the) Devil in Disguise
Bossa Nova Baby
Suspicious Minds

He’s one of those artists who’s easy to dismiss until you actually go through and look at what he accomplished. Note that the first three songs were not big sellers, but I like them a lot anyway. And that’s by no means all the best selling singles he released, either; my taste tends to run towards his uptempo songs. BTW, “In the Ghetto” isn’t a favorite of mine. But as they say, YMMV.
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Old 01-08-2019, 04:49 PM
 
993 posts, read 400,399 times
Reputation: 1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by P47P47 View Post
What about songwriters who aren't performers?


Who would you rather watch performing "Hound Dog" or "Jailhouse Rock", Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller - or Elvis?

How about "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' ", Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil - or The Righteous Brothers?



Some people write, but don't perform.

Some don't write, but they perform.

Some do both.

Plenty of room for all, and nothing to look down on the first two groups over.
Yup — there were plenty of songwriters who wrote a lot of stuff for others to perform and weren’t performers themselves, several allied with what’s called Brill Building pop music. Leiber and Stoller, and Mann and Weil are two of them. There’s also Gerry Goffin and Carole King (though the latter wrote and performed her own stuff later on), Doc Pomus and Mort Shuman, Jeff Barry and Ellie Greenwich, Burt Bacharach and Hal David, and Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart. Some performers, like Paul Anka, Gene Pitney, Neil Diamond, and Neil Sedaka (the last sometimes paired with Howard Greenfield) also wrote a number of songs for others to record. There’s also several major Motown examples like Brian Holland/Lamont Dozier/Eddie Holland, Norman Jesse Whitfield, and William Mickey Stevenson, as well as performers who also wrote for other groups such as Smokey Robinson and Nickolas Ashford/Valerie Simpson.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:55 AM
 
9,052 posts, read 9,881,359 times
Reputation: 6936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Depends on what you mean "play" (And dollars to donuts he ain't playing along with the song to A7X, Dream Theatre, Coheed, Disturbed, etc. except for maybe the main riff chords [approximated], and the chorus chords). Depends on what's on the radio.

Take "Walk" by Pantera, or "Crazy on You" by Heart.

Can you play a stripped down set of chords that the song uses at tempo in a few weeks? Sure. Can a person learn to play one of those songs note perfect at tempo, in rhythm with exactly the same precision and techniques in a few weeks? No, unless they're one very special person. It takes years to develop the skills, speed, strength and muscle memory to achieve the digital gymnastics of Nancy Wilson or Darrell Abbott, that's no exaggeration, it's common knowledge, any teacher claiming otherwise is selling snake oil, or should be ashamed, because what are those claims doing to his students?

Going way back you'll get some really simple stuff too, Yellow Submarine should take any average guitar student about 15 minutes or less to play from scratch. That's quite some time ago. Indeed for sheer complexity (And wankery) 80s hair metal was some seriously intricate fretwork, and it's carried forward even now with the likes of Marilyn Manson, Rob Zombie, Dream Theatre, and many others (even things like The Arctic Monkeys and Black Keys at times).

First song any electric guitar player should learn...

"Smoke On The Water", nearly 50 years old, written by among others Richie Blackmore, who is one patron saint of guitarists.

The strength of something like Smoke isn't difficulty, it's simplicity (although the phrygian flattened 2nd is adding harmonic complexity in the chorus) , complexity speaks to your head musically speaking, simplicity speaks to your gut. The best songs written are typically simple, the classic I-IV-V progression, is one example, but check out this variety
I-IV-V: The Little Chord Progression That Could

There's also a pretty wide mix of old and new, but that progression is 12 bar blues baby, how old is that? First written records are WC Handy's at the beginning of the 20th century, but it goes way back before those written records.

Guitar mills like North Texas, Berkeley, GTI, Miami (Dixie Dregs) to name a few are churning out young Guitar players who teach because the field is too crowded. One guy told me his college had over 125 rock Guitar majors and it was shoot out at OK Corral every day. They say it’s not playing the stuff that matters it's thinking it up first. So playing along with any guitar god is simply expected in those circles. You can always find a guy in those schools who can play exactly like (insert guitar hero) but he knows it won’t do him any good in getting a record deal.

The use of the Tri-Tone in Smoke on the Water opened up Rock Music to something new that Metalica re-explored a generation later. Jimi used a chord with a Maj 3rd and a Min 3rd in Purple Haze those are things are easily copied but it takes genius to think of.
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