Sounds Ballpark development news: could the East Bank scrapyard finally be on its way out? (Franklin: homes, neighborhood)

[nashvols]

Originally Posted by Five Faces

I agree with everything you said, hence my use of the word "dream" which is what I will be doing for the foreseable future.

Hey, no problem with that.

If the city didn't have dreamers, we wouldn't have goals. Without goals, what would we accomplish?

[JMT]

Originally Posted by Five Faces

I agree with everything you said, hence my use of the word "dream" which is what I will be doing for the foreseable future.

Nashville came somewhat close to getting a MLB team back in the 80s when Larry Schmittou, former owner of the Sounds, tried to get an expansion team. They went to Tampa Bay and Arizona instead. And now that Nashville has the NFL and NHL, it'll probably never happen. Nashville just isn't large enough to support 3 major league sports franchises. But AAA baseball is a lot of fun. When I lived in Memphis I went to Redbirds games all the time in their beautiful downtown stadium. It'll be great to have the same in Nashville.

I'd much rather have major league hockey and minor league baseball than the other way around.

[Five Faces]

Originally Posted by JMT

Nashville just isn't large enough to support 3 major league sports franchises.

You're right (and I'm still dreamin) but...I wondered if what might make the difference is the fact that the NFL/NHL seasons are different than the MLB season. With that in mind do you still think MLB and two other pro teams can NOT survive in Nashville?

[nashvols]

Originally Posted by JMT

I'd much rather have major league hockey and minor league baseball than the other way around.

I agree. For those who haven't experienced Preds games in person...it's really something to see. A very underrated atmosphere (from the looks of it, the Grizz have done a good job of creating an awesome atmosphere over in Memphis, too, though I'm not personally big on the NBA).

It should also be noted that Nashville made a push for the Expos in the mid 90s...and I can say I'm kind of glad that one fell through.

Interestingly, when Craig Leopold (the man who brought us the Preds and was the original owner) first came to Nashville with the idea of bringing a major league team here, his thought was NOT hockey, but basketball. He wanted to lure an NBA team here. Ultimately, he switched his plans to the NHL, and after the Devil's decided to stay in New Jersey, Nashville was awarded an NHL franchise.

I think it worked out for the best, though...as having an NBA team here might've meant that Memphis wouldn't have gotten their team...and I think the NBA is a much better fit in Memphis. It's really more of a basketball town.

Back to AAA vs. MLB....I think that the minor leagues in baseball are BY FAR the best of any of the major sports as far as fan experience goes. I completely agree with the idea that having a AAA baseball team and an NHL team is a much better option than having an MLB team and an AHL team. Nothing against the AHL...but it's just not the same to me.



Sidenote: I think they should design the baseball stadium in such a way that it makes it a good outdoor concert venue...something to replace Starwood (better location, for one). LP is obviously way too large to host concerts...but I think a well designed baseball stadium that seats around 12-13,000 (+temporary seating in the infield) would be idea to attract spring/summer concerts in an attractive outdoor setting.

[nashvols]

Originally Posted by Five Faces

You're right (and I'm still dreamin) but...I wondered if what might make the difference is the fact that the NFL/NHL seasons are different than the MLB season. With that in mind do you still think MLB and two other pro teams can NOT survive in Nashville?

I think it goes back to the total disposable income argument. There are certain segments of the population that will ONLY buy NFL, NHL, or MLB season tickets. Then there some (with deep pockets) who will be able to buy multiple, or even season tickets to all three (a very small group, mind you)...and then you will have a lot of your "average" fans that will pick and choose certain games to attend for one, two, or each of the three sports.

I think the overall issue is the depth of sports fans here. There are 1.6 million in the metro...you might be able to stretch that to a little over 2 million people in the area (including Southern Kentucky and perhaps all the way to northern Alabama) who will support the team and attend some games...

But look at the other 3 sport cities...Houston, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, St. Louis, Tampa Bay, Toronto (of those, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Tampa have the NFL, NHL, MLB combo). We're simply not in that league of size.

Look at the other 2 sport cities...Kansas City, Seattle, New Orleans, San Diego, Cincinnati, Charlotte, Buffalo, Indianapolis, Milwaukee. We are much closer to that class of city (Our metro ranks 6th out of those 10...our media market ranks 4th among them...so we're kind of in the middle of the road there). We're much more in that class than we are the 3 sport cities.

There's also the corporate side. The Predators have struggled (they've improved recently) to attract corporate sponsors and corporate ticket holders. If you add another major franchise, you're going to have to hope that businesses that have not lent their sponsorship to the other two franchises suddenly want to sponsor the MLB team. In other words, things would be extremely tight all the way around.

Also, you have to consider that Nashville is thoroughly in Braves territory, with some minority appeal for the Cardinals and Reds (the 3 closest teams to us...all roughly 4-5 hours away). Unlike the Titans (most fans around here were Cowboys fans IIRC) and Predators (not a well defined market...but some Blues and Red Wings fans), you would have a situation where you would be aiming to "convert" fans of the surrounding area rather than attracting loosely aligned or unaligned fans. I think it would be hard to grab the fans that lie further away from the city...whereas the Predators and Titans had little problem attracting a broad base of regional support.

[ExIslander]

Originally Posted by Five Faces

You're right (and I'm still dreamin) but...I wondered if what might make the difference is the fact that the NFL/NHL seasons are different than the MLB season. With that in mind do you still think MLB and two other pro teams can NOT survive in Nashville?

I think it would be extremely tough. The Titans are going to get theirs; football is first, second and third in fan interest around here. That would leave MLB and the Predators scrambling for leftover discretionary dollars and corporate sponsorships, and that would be a hard road for baseball, which is a demanding mistress (81 home games, a team needs to draw two million annually as a bare minimum for keeping up). If baseball did come here and survive, it would probably be at the expense of the Predators.

[nashvols]

Originally Posted by ExIslander

I think it would be extremely tough. The Titans are going to get theirs; football is first, second and third in fan interest around here. That would leave MLB and the Predators scrambling for leftover discretionary dollars and corporate sponsorships, and that would be a hard road for baseball, which is a demanding mistress (81 home games, a team needs to draw two million annually as a bare minimum for keeping up). If baseball did come here and survive, it would probably be at the expense of the Predators.

It should be pointed out that you have 8 football home games (~552,000 tickets), 41 hockey home games (~697,000 tickets) and 81 baseball home games (~2,430,000 tickets, even assuming a smallish park seating 30,000). That's a total of 130 games and 3,679,000 tickets to be absorbed by a TV market area with about 2.4 million people. Not including any playoff games. Right now our number (Preds + Titans) is 49 games and 1,249,000 tickets. Baseball is very hard on a small market. That's why you aren't seeing teams move to a city Nashville's size. The only cities our size with MLB teams have had them for a good deal of time.

[JMT]

Originally Posted by nashvols

It should be pointed out that you have 8 football home games (~552,000 tickets), 41 hockey home games (~697,000 tickets) and 81 baseball home games (~2,430,000 tickets, even assuming a smallish park seating 30,000). That's a total of 130 games and 3,679,000 tickets to be absorbed by a TV market area with about 2.4 million people. Not including any playoff games. Right now our number (Preds + Titans) is 49 games and 1,249,000 tickets. Baseball is very hard on a small market. That's why you aren't seeing teams move to a city Nashville's size. The only cities our size with MLB teams have had them for a good deal of time.

Excellent points. In addition, the MLB doesn't have revenue sharing and salary caps like the NFL. It's very tough for teams in small MLB markets to compete against the big city teams year after year. As much as I love the MLB, I'm very, very happy to see that Nashville has "just" a AAA team.

[Big TR]

Nobody goes to these games. To say "It's Nashville's team" is funny. Less than 5,000 people out of over 1.5 million in the Nashville area come to each game.

Analysis: Nashville Sounds near bottom in AAA attendance - Nashville Business Journal

They need a nice small 10,000 seat stadium in the suburbs.

[nashvols]

Originally Posted by Big TR

Nobody goes to these games. To say "It's Nashville's team" is funny. Less than 5,000 people out of over 1.5 million in the Nashville area come to each game.

Analysis: Nashville Sounds near bottom in AAA attendance - Nashville Business Journal

They need a nice small 10,000 seat stadium in the suburbs.

The Sounds were a big deal when they first moved to Greer in the 70s. They were a big deal when there weren't any other professional teams in town.

But now they aren't a big deal. Part of that is because there are more things to do than go to AAA baseball these days. A lot of people don't want to go to Greer because the location is hard to access. There is nothing around there to do before or after the game...it's on the backside of a hill overlooking an industrial area in a questionable at best part of town. The stadium isn't terrible...but it's terribly dated and only getting older.

It's really no surprise that the games aren't well attended, considering that.

Put the stadium near downtown, within walking distance of restaurants and bars and other entertainment. The crowd will feed off of that atmosphere, just as the other pro teams have. Locating our sports teams downtown has definitely helped keep improve the street activity downtown, especially during the non-tourist season. It worked for the Predators and the Titans...I don't see why it wouldn't work for the Sounds.

I am strongly opposed to any suburban ballpark...for one, it IS Nashville's team. If you think otherwise, you haven't lived here very long. Putting it out in Franklin (like they need any more crap to screw up traffic in Cool Springs anyways...) means putting it a farther distance from more people...I don't see how that will help boost attendance. You then make it harder for all the people in Mount Juliet, Lebanon, Hendersonville, Gallatin, Springfield, and of course Nashville, to get to the games. But great for Franklin. Who cares about anyone else in the metro? That seems to be the going attitude right now.