Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Franklin has 67,000 residents. It is in no way, shape, or form a "small farm community", and it has not been for some time. It used to be a small town, but it hasn't been a small farming community since the turn of the 20th Century. As the county seat, it has always been the focal point of political and economic activity in Williamson County.
Brentwood is the place that used to be a small farming community...and it hasn't been that either since white flight triggered a population surge in the 50s and 60s.
The difference between Brentwood and Franklin is that Franklin does make an effort to cater to young professionals, both singles and families. If you do not think that is important, then you aren't paying attention to the trends in this country. Millennials tend to prefer more urban environments. If Brentwood doesn't want to cater to that, that's fine. But when the baby boomers start dying off, who will be living in Brentwood? Gen Xers?
What Brentwood desires to preserve is the very thing that will make it unattractive to younger generations, which is ultimately not a sustainable model.
From that perspective, I find Franklin's leadership to be far more dynamic and forward-thinking.
I disagree, on several levels. First, I can drive through Franklin right now and see farms everywhere. It may not be what it once was but it is still a small community and it still has plenty of farms.
Second, I am a Gen Xer, living in a neighborhood full of Gen Xers with young children. I suspect my family and other families like mine will occupy Brentwood for decades to come... unless of course you go trying to make it some hip, urban community. Then I will leave and look for someplace that suits the lifestyle I have here now. I suspect many others currently here will do the same.
When I was younger and single, I didn't aspire to live in suburbia. I wanted no part of what Brentwood is. Coincidentally, I wouldn't have had any interest in living in Brentwood even if they did start adding apartments. It's just not a community for young people. I wanted a young, active community with a lot of bars, restaurants and apartments. I suspect as Millennials get older, mature and start making families of their own, Brentwood will be exactly what they are looking for. I think Brentwood, exactly as it is, is a highly sustainable model for many decades to come.
I don't understand a mentality that you have to actively recruit young, singles to your area to give it long term vitality. Brentwood is doing just fine now, if not a little too good. Desire to live in an affluent, family friendly neighborhood isn't going away just because the current generation of young people is just as contrary to suburbia as the generation that preceded it and the generation that preceded it when they were young.
Those looking for a different lifestyle can find it in abundance in other areas of Nashville. There is no need to make every single area in a metro conform to every single lifestyle.
I don't think what Franklin is doing is forward thinking at all. Thumbing your nose at the very culture that made the area desirable is what is not sustainable. Those that moved to Franklin for what it was, aren't going to hang around when it becomes more like the Gulch, MidTown or 12 South. When all the people with money leave and the property values plummet are the young people that were so desperate to get there and ruin it going to stick around?
What I think is great for EVERYONE in a metro like Nashville is when a large group of people can't find an area with a lifestyle that suits them, take over an area that is less desirable and make it the kind of community they're looking for. Germantown, the Gulch, 12 South and East Nashville are examples of exactly what Nashville needs. Leave Brentwood and Franklin alone so residents there can enjoy the area they built for themselves when they couldn't find it anywhere else so many years ago.
I disagree, on several levels. First, I can drive through Franklin right now and see farms everywhere. It may not be what it once was but it is still a small community and it still has plenty of farms.
That does not make it a FARMING community. What percentage of residents are farmers? 1 or 2%? There are farms in Davidson County, too. That doesn't make the neighborhoods with farms "farming communities". Also, I wouldn't count estate farms (show farms) or horse farms towards being a "farming community" either, as they don't operate the same way that working dairy, cattle, or crop farms do.
The other issue here is small. FRANKLIN IS NOT A SMALL COMMUNITY. WHEN YOU CAN FILL AN NFL STADIUM WITH YOUR RESIDENTS, YOU ARE NO LONGER "SMALL". Dickson is small. Fairview is small. Watertown is small. Greenbrier is small. Franklin is not a small community by any stretch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bspray
Second, I am a Gen Xer, living in a neighborhood full of Gen Xers with young children. I suspect my family and other families like mine will occupy Brentwood for decades to come... unless of course you go trying to make it some hip, urban community. Then I will leave and look for someplace that suits the lifestyle I have here now. I suspect many others currently here will do the same.
And that is fine. Like I said, it's not that you should be forced to live in an environment that you do not like. My point is that demographic trends are showing the desire for a more urban environment, especially among younger generations. However, it should also be noted that a strong number of baby boomers are also relocated to cities because of access to amenities, not having to keep up with a large lot or house, and (while this is not as applicable to the current Nashville situation) not having to drive to get to said amenities.
The birth rate is slowing, and has been for a long time. The percentage of family occupied housing units is decreasing, and the percentage of single and childless couple households are rising. That especially holds true as income rises. What that means is that the share of people with the income and means to afford Brentwood are not going to need 5,000 sq ft McMansions and acre lots for the kids to play in. Make no mistake, I'm not suggesting Brentwood is going to become a ghost town. But I do firmly believe that the desirability for that type of development will decrease over time. Growth rates are still strong...now. That does not mean they will be by the time that the majority of home buyers are Millennials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bspray
When I was younger and single, I didn't aspire to suburbia or what Brentwood is. Coincidentally, I wouldn't have had any interest in living in Brentwood even if they did start adding apartments. It's just not a community for young people. I wanted a young, active community with a lot of bars, restaurants and apartments. I suspect as Millennials get older, mature and start making families of their own, Brentwood will be exactly what they are looking for. I think Brentwood, exactly as it is, is a highly sustainable model for many decades to come.
It's not just about apartment living, bars, and restaurants. It's about proximity. As a Millennial, I see both the draw of apartments/condos and single family homes. However, the type of single family house that I desire is not a mansion and is not on a large lot. I like homes with unique character. I like older homes. New construction is fine if done right. I don't have an affinity for gaudy homes with a mish mash of architectural styles. I like the idea of being able to walk, bike, or ride a bus or train to where I want to go. I do love driving, but I don't love commuting. I would much rather be close to work (but not too close). I like the idea of being able to walk or ride a bike to a park. Bars and restaurants are a plus -- mainly restaurants, but those aren't the only considerations I have. And despite all of that, I'm not overly turned on to the idea of living in a "hip" area. Hipness means little to me. I am not hip. I like statistics. That pretty much eliminates me from being hip.
I say the above to provide some perspective on the mind of a Millennial. It goes far beyond any sort of party lifestyle and bar scene. And there are many, many others like me. We see cities and urban areas as places of activity, where we can freely interact with others without the need of long travel.
I don't say the above as a means of looking down on the lifestyle you choose. I am a proponent of free choice. You do what makes you and your family happy. I'll do what makes me happy. But at the same time, I think it would be wise to consider what the demographic trends are saying. Brentwood doesn't need to become some hip, dense, urban neighborhood. That's just not going to happen. But I do strongly believe that ignoring these trends will have a negative impact on Brentwood in the long run. Perhaps not in the next couple of decades. Perhaps so. I don't have a crystal ball. After all, the same factors that made urban neighborhoods so unattractive to so many people in the last 60-70 years are the same factors that make them attractive today. But the difference back then was that these neighborhoods were crowded by large families. Today, the density is much more manageable due to a smaller family size.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bspray
I don't understand a mentality that you have to actively recruit young, singles to your area to give it long term vitality. Brentwood is doing just fine now, if not a little too good. Desire to live in an affluent, family friendly neighborhood isn't going away just because the current generation of young people is just as contrary to suburbia as the generation that preceded it and the generation that preceded it when they were young.
That's the problem. Your perspective is entirely fixed on the present. How do you prepare for the future with your mind firmly planted in the present? Many large companies have died out over time because of their inability to see what was coming. The same can be said for some cities -- such as Rust Belt factory towns, where the vitality was totally dependent on one single industry. Rather than adapt to changing times or what was coming on the horizon (diversify the economy), they relished in their present success. And they paid for it. Now Brentwood is not a single-industry town, but as pointed out by you earlier, it lacks diversity. The culture is more or less homogeneous. If what makes the town prosperous now -- wealthy families with the desire for large houses on large lots in car-based suburbia -- changes, then it has nothing to fall back on.
Remember that suburbia itself is a creation of circumstances. The suburbia that we see today is a relatively new creation (post WWII), whereas cities have existed for thousands of years. It coincided with the growth in popularity of the personal automobile. What is to say that will continue to be the driving force for decades to come? How many generations have actually lived in suburbia? Baby boomers were the first -- so 4?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bspray
Those looking for a different lifestyle can find it in abundance in other areas of Nashville. There is no need to make every single area in a metro conform to every single lifestyle.
That is certainly a valid point. I will say that a lot of other suburbs are a lot more diverse in terms of what they offer in terms of lifestyles and housing stock. Again, Brentwood is pretty much homogeneous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bspray
I don't think what Franklin is doing is forward thinking at all. Thumbing your nose at the very culture that made the area desirable is what is not sustainable. Those that moved to Franklin for what it was, aren't going to hang around when it becomes more like the Gulch, MidTown or 12 South. When all the people with money leave and the property values plummet are the young people that were so desperate to get there and ruin it going to stick around?
What culture made the Franklin area more desirable? Can you tell me? Franklin wasn't much in terms of aesthetics (outside of downtown) before the boom. You know what really changed things? The mall. Simply put, the mall filled Franklin's coffers and allowed them to really boom. Before the mall, it looked like Brentwood was going to overtake Franklin in terms of population. The funny thing is that the mall, the very thing that sparked a lot of development, is a dying model itself. Why do you think retail development in Franklin has evolved so much over time?
The other thing is that Franklin has never been a one acre, one house town. They have always had apartments and smaller houses. They even have trailer homes and public housing. It is only in recent years that houses have been getting larger. But they have continued to build apartments. Apartment development is certainly not a new thing to Franklin. They have just changed the style (and now they are a whole lot nicer).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bspray
What I think is great for EVERYONE in a metro like Nashville is when a large group of people can't find an area with a lifestyle that suits them, take over an area that is less desirable and make it the kind of community they're looking for. Germantown, the Gulch, 12 South and East Nashville are examples of exactly what Nashville needs. Leave Brentwood and Franklin alone so residents there can enjoy the area they built for themselves when they couldn't find it so many years ago.
Last time I checked, Franklin is doing what they want to do. No one is forcing them to do anything. I don't think people are being "forced" to change anything in Franklin. Not to say that there isn't disagreement about the direction the city goes (that happens in every city), but they don't have the same level of NIMBYism that Brentwood does. Brentwood and Franklin share some similar traits, but they are not one in the same. As a Brentwood resident, speak for Brentwood. I don't think the Franklin posters share the same vision of Franklin that you have.
The other issue here is small. FRANKLIN IS NOT A SMALL COMMUNITY. WHEN YOU CAN FILL AN NFL STADIUM WITH YOUR RESIDENTS, YOU ARE NO LONGER "SMALL". Dickson is small. Fairview is small. Watertown is small. Greenbrier is small. Franklin is not a small community by any stretch.
I don't want to beat a dead horse so I will just respond to a couple of things.
On whether or not Franklin is small, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. At 67,000 residents, it doesn't even rank in the top 500 cities in the US based on population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols
The birth rate is slowing, and has been for a long time. The percentage of family occupied housing units is decreasing, and the percentage of single and childless couple households are rising. That especially holds true as income rises. What that means is that the share of people with the income and means to afford Brentwood are not going to need 5,000 sq ft McMansions and acre lots for the kids to play in. Make no mistake, I'm not suggesting Brentwood is going to become a ghost town. But I do firmly believe that the desirability for that type of development will decrease over time. Growth rates are still strong...now. That does not mean they will be by the time that the majority of home buyers are Millennials.
Again, I disagree. I think the move back to urban areas started with my generation and Gen Y if there is a significant enough distinction. I think it has been accelerated by Millennials but I would argue it didn't start with them. My generation, when young and single, hated 'the establishment' and the idea of suburbia too, as we matured and had families of our own our tastes and needs changed in spite of the fact that people are having fewer children and having them later in life.
My wife and I only have one child and we live next door to more Gen Xers with only one child. There are two other young families with only one child on our cul de sac. While none of us have 5,000 sqft homes (maybe one of them is), they aren't exactly shantys either.
I don't think viewing past trends and current trends can be so easily categorized as being 'stuck in the present'. Like you, I don't know what the future holds, but if history is any indicator (and it usually is), Millennials are going to have families in their mid to late 30s (even if they're small families), just like my generation and they will look to provide the best life for their families. Maybe it's the hip urban lifestyle in high density living conditions you describe, maybe it's the traditional suburban lifestyle I describe. I am not going to patently say you're wrong, you may be right about what Millennials will ultimately end up preferring. By the same token, having been both a member of the young, single, progressive generation as well as the maturing generation with a family, I might have a little insight into that too. You might not want to completely discount my perspective either.
I think the difference here is that you think what Millennials are doing is new and expect the trend to continue even as their lives and priorities change. I've been there and done that and I have a different perspective. I guess we will have to wait and see who ends up being right. With my luck, it will probably end up being just about 50\50.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols
Many large companies have died out over time because of their inability to see what was coming. The same can be said for some cities -- such as Rust Belt factory towns, where the vitality was totally dependent on one single industry. Rather than adapt to changing times or what was coming on the horizon (diversify the economy), they relished in their present success. And they paid for it. Now Brentwood is not a single-industry town, but as pointed out by you earlier, it lacks diversity. The culture is more or less homogeneous. If what makes the town prosperous now -- wealthy families with the desire for large houses on large lots in car-based suburbia -- changes, then it has nothing to fall back on.
I would counter this with, many large companies have also stayed dominant by not following the latest trend or fad while others have lost everything trying to follow what the crowd is doing today. The same holds true for cities. There is nothing wrong with progressive. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with traditional either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols
What culture made the Franklin area more desirable? Can you tell me? Franklin wasn't much in terms of aesthetics (outside of downtown) before the boom. You know what really changed things? The mall. Simply put, the mall filled Franklin's coffers and allowed them to really boom. Before the mall, it looked like Brentwood was going to overtake Franklin in terms of population. The funny thing is that the mall, the very thing that sparked a lot of development, is a dying model itself. Why do you think retail development in Franklin has evolved so much over time?
The other thing is that Franklin has never been a one acre, one house town. They have always had apartments and smaller houses. They even have trailer homes and public housing. It is only in recent years that houses have been getting larger. But they have continued to build apartments. Apartment development is certainly not a new thing to Franklin. They have just changed the style (and now they are a whole lot nicer).
Last time I checked, Franklin is doing what they want to do. No one is forcing them to do anything. I don't think people are being "forced" to change anything in Franklin. Not to say that there isn't disagreement about the direction the city goes (that happens in every city), but they don't have the same level of NIMBYism that Brentwood does. Brentwood and Franklin share some similar traits, but they are not one in the same. As a Brentwood resident, speak for Brentwood. I don't think the Franklin posters share the same vision of Franklin that you have.
You are probably right about the boom in Franklin beginning with the mall. You asked what culture made Franklin desirable, I would say that mall based population boom was started by people looking for a quaint area, with small town values - away from the city and all the hustle and bustle? I suspect they were looking for a quiet safe area, close enough to the urban core that they could go experience it if they wanted but when they're done, they could go home to their suburban utopia. Factor in the quaint small town feel, with Mayberryesque downtown and you have the very culture that made (and still makes) Franklin desirable. Jobs were close enough, commerce was close enough, the 'big city' was close enough - yet not in their backyards.
Now certain groups want to come in and turn it into something other than what it's been? That probably won't sit well with the majority of the 67,000 that paid a good amount of money to move there because of what it was. Maybe the majority of residents are fine with what is happening. I have quite a few friends and acquaintances in Franklin and I hear a different perspective. Of course, my anecdotal perspective is just that - as is yours.
Personally, I am of the opinion that it is developers looking to make a quick buck and then leave that are the drivers for a lot of what is happening in Franklin. I don't get the impression it is current residents clamoring for more people to move into higher density living situations in Franklin... maybe I'm wrong. I think Franklin is getting what developers want, not what residents of Franklin want. But, your point about me not being a Franklin resident is valid so I won't speak for them.
One thing I can assure, there are hundreds of very large homes in Franklin that are more than 20 years old. That didn't just start in recent years unless 'recent years' to you is a few decades.
On whether or not Franklin is small, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. At 67,000 residents, it doesn't even rank in the top 500 cities in the US based on population.
No, but it is either the sixth or seventh largest city in Tennessee -- depending on Jackson's growth or lack thereof. Arguing that Franklin is a small town is, quite frankly, bizarre. If you are comparing it to Tokyo, then ok, it's a small town. If you are placing it in any reasonable context (state, region, etc.), it is not a small town. You may want it to be, but it is not.
As stated in a previous post, I don't think of diversity in terms of race, gender or sexual preference. I consider diversity to be cultural, economic, political and absolutely philosophical.
The culture of Brentwood is large, expensive homes on larges lots. Maybe residents of Brentwood just don't want to change the culture of what we have here. What is so wrong with that? If someone is looking for mixed use, diverse communities there are much better options in the Nashville area.
The fact that residents in Brentwood don't want diversity is not a negative, it's just not wanted in the area. There are plenty of other areas in and around Nashville that have mixed use development and more diverse communities. Brentwood isn't one of them and hopefully never will be.
I don't think for a second it affects Brentwood's appeal as an attractive place for young families (that can afford it) and I have no idea why singles would want to live in Brentwood - there is just not much here for them... by design.
Trying to turn Franklin into a hip, urban area is going to ruin it just like it would Brentwood. Franklin is a small, family friendly, farm community and it should stay that way. Why does everyone feel like every area of the country has to have accommodations for every single lifestyle in the world? It's ridiculous.
Despite what you think, diversity does include race, in addition to the other factors you mentioned. Your third paragraph proved my point why it will affect Brentwood as an attractive place for young families of more than wealthy backgrounds. The developments that I mentioned were exactly the type of things that catered to singles, young families, and empty nesters which is what Brentwood needs keep a great quality of life. Your last post about Franklin clearly shows that you do not know what you are talking about.
Your third paragraph proved my point why it will affect Brentwood as an attractive place for young families of more than wealthy backgrounds.
That is certainly my hope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakeesha
The developments that I mentioned were exactly the type of things that catered to singles, young families, and empty nesters which is what Brentwood needs keep a great quality of life.
Your opinion is exactly that. As a Brentwood resident and taxpayer, I completely disagree. I can drive less than 30 minutes to get to any of the things those 'mixed use' developments would provide. Why does Brentwood need them when they already exist in close proximity?
Remember that suburbia itself is a creation of circumstances. The suburbia that we see today is a relatively new creation (post WWII), whereas cities have existed for thousands of years. It coincided with the growth in popularity of the personal automobile. What is to say that will continue to be the driving force for decades to come?
Yep. And here's what that meant: for the first time in history, people could generally live where they wanted to, not where they had to. Given the choice, a lot of them chose a little more elbow room.
The recent move toward infill and re-urbanization doesn't surprise me, though. The more a metro area becomes car-based suburban sprawl, the more commuting sucks. People juggle several factors when choosing where to live.
About Brentwood itself, as long as people perceive raising kids as safer in big suburban homes than in urban areas, I don't see a shortage of people wanting to live in that environment. Now, people who want to live in that environment AND can afford to do so at modern-day prices? That could be an issue at some point. Economic stuff happens.
People are attracted to Brentwood for all sorts of reasons, and not just its low density. Schools were certainly the big factor for us. There's a dearth of secular private schools in middle Tennessee, and they tend to be competitive. And if you add that to the higher costs per square foot in neighborhoods like 12South and Green Hills, it makes Williamson County look like a better deal.
People who work in Maryland Farms and Cool Springs might also prefer to live in Williamson County for all the reasons living close to work is appealing.
So I think it's shortsighted to say that someone who values "amenities" can and will simply choose another neighborhood. Also, I can value my space and quiet and also wish I had more access to bike lanes and green space I can access without my car--not all "new age" proposals are incongruous with Brentwood's original vision.
That said, a lot of the rhetoric around projects like Streets of Brentwood came down to nothing short of fear-mongering. Traffic in the area is a legitimate concern. But when you start telling me that if we build apartments then my daughter will be going to school with "transients" (an argument I actually heard), then we can just end this discussion right here because you're not going to convince me this is something I should vote against.
Last edited by WanderingFar; 04-22-2014 at 04:21 PM..
That said, a lot of the rhetoric around projects like Streets of Brentwood came down to nothing short of fear-mongering. Traffic in the area is a legitimate concern. But when you start telling me that if we build apartments then my daughter will be going to school with "transients" (an argument I actually heard), then we can just end this discussion right here because you're not going to convince me this is something I should vote against.
That's pretty much the feeling I get.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
