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Old 03-22-2009, 01:10 PM
 
541 posts, read 1,222,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky42day View Post
You should ask yourself why you feel this way. Surely you don't truly believe the "haves" are better people than the "have nots".
Generally speaking, the "have nots" in the US ended up in that position via an extended history of poor decision making. That tends to translate into poor parenting, as well. It's one of the reason you see almost no discipline in kids raised in government housing, why the places very soon fall apart, and why no one in their right mind wants Section 8 housing moving in next door.

I say that gingerly, as this is something that doesn't so much apply to new immigrants or to older generations as much. Nor to the mentally handicapped or to those with psychiatric illnesses.

That said, "the haves" almost universally got into that position via a series of responsible decisions aside from the extremely rare breed in these parts, the Trustafarain. (And for the record, "the haves" that got there wrecklessly have a nasty habit of blowing it all and becoming "have nots" again).

I'm talking extremes here. The guy who feeds his family, works the same job day-in and day-out, and brings home 28k per year might be considered poor by some, but he's not ever going to be a permanent project dweller.

You're asking someone to step into a minefield with that "better than comment," but wouldn't you prefer to have your children surrounded by other children who were taught discipline and who were being raised by their parents from an early age to become responsible adults and ready to support themselves and their families when that time comes? A lot of kids don't get that... Suburbanites, love'em or hate'em, usually do.

There's a reason why the average ACT score at Brentwood High is a 25 and why it's far, far lower at a lot of other schools. And it doesn't have as much to do with the school's money, either.
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Old 03-22-2009, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Madison, Tennessee
427 posts, read 1,305,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMartel2 View Post
Generally speaking, the "have nots" in the US ended up in that position via an extended history of poor decision making. That tends to translate into poor parenting, as well. It's one of the reason you see almost no discipline in kids raised in government housing, why the places very soon fall apart, and why no one in their right mind wants Section 8 housing moving in next door.
All the more reason to have kids in public housing have the same educational opportunities as anyone else.

They're already facing obstacles that they certainly didn't ask for. Statements like this that justify keeping them "over there" instead of with a wide range of kids from a wide range of backgrounds ensure that they'll remain in the underclass.

Family isn't the only determinant of a kid's future. The adults around them, the schools they're in, their friends, all are part of the socialization process.

They need social structures that can help them learn how to make good decisions as well as other behaviors that will give them a better chance at success.

And there are reasons why kids in Brentwood do better: They won the birth lottery. They didn't do anything to deserve it any more than poor kids did anything to deserve their lot in life. Adults deserve the results of their own decision making. Kids shouldn't suffer for their parents' mistakes.

btw, There's plenty of dysfunction among the "haves." The idea that they're all fine, mature decision-makers is a generalization that doesn't stand much scrutiny.
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Old 03-22-2009, 07:47 PM
 
140 posts, read 618,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMartel2 View Post
There's a reason why the average ACT score at Brentwood High is a 25 and why it's far, far lower at a lot of other schools. And it doesn't have as much to do with the school's money, either.
You're right, it doesn't have much to do the school's money. It has to do with their parents' money. But I'm not sure that was the point you were trying to make.
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Old 03-22-2009, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,336 posts, read 7,017,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbmill3 View Post
You're right, it doesn't have much to do the school's money. It has to do with their parents' money. But I'm not sure that was the point you were trying to make.
Am I missing something? Does ACT allow parents to buy their children high scores now?

I'm pretty sure it has a lot more to do with their parents raising them to value education than it does with their parents' money.

Before you rehash the tired old argument about $1,500 "prep courses" and what not, know that I scored well above a 30 on that test and so did many of my friends in high school. None of us spent a dime on that stuff. Once again, we were all raised in households where education was valued. Those are the kinds of kids I want my own kids (when I have them) to be surrounded by in school.
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Old 03-22-2009, 08:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad fiddler View Post
All the more reason to have kids in public housing have the same educational opportunities as anyone else.
I believe they have access to public schools, just the same as everyone else. I didn't grow up well off. My parents never sent me to private schools, didn't buy my first car, and didn't take me on exotic vacations. Did I deserve those things? I don't think so, but to those who could, good for them.

I'm a firm believer that if two people work hard, achieve their dreams, and meet financial success that they should be able to pass the fruits of this hard work and vision on to their children, ideally raising them with the same values that brought their parents to their own dreams.

My school didn't have tennis courts, a state-of-the-art theatre, an olympic-sized pool or an orchestra, and I don't really think we "deserved" them. We paid much lower taxes than others and made less. That doesn't mean you couldn't seek those things out in and around the community, though. They're luxuries, and ones often worth pursuing if one so dreams.

Quote:
They're already facing obstacles that they certainly didn't ask for.
Aren't we all.

Quote:
Statements like this that justify keeping them "over there" instead of with a wide range of kids from a wide range of backgrounds ensure that they'll remain in the underclass.
No, it doesn't. In the rural area where I grew up, it doesn't usually work this way. You'll have kids go off in all sorts of directions and make their own path while others linger behind. I'm a firm believer that life is what you make of it, and around the age of 13 or so, kids start becoming a lot more responsible for their own actions. At some point, hard work, determination, and a will to succeed come into play. I bought myself a lot of opportunities busting my hump over the summers picking strawberries and blackberries around local farms and selling them. As is always the case, you do what you need to do to achieve your dreams.

Quote:
And there are reasons why kids in Brentwood do better: They won the birth lottery. They didn't do anything to deserve it any more than poor kids did anything to deserve their lot in life. Adults deserve the results of their own decision making. Kids shouldn't suffer for their parents' mistakes.
Nonsense. You can't tell me that all the kids from Brentwood who bang out 32s on the ACT and won full-ride scholarships as a result only achieved that because they were born into life's lottery (unless you're perhaps referring to genetics). Not if you in anyway believe in personal accountability.

Quote:
btw, There's plenty of dysfunction among the "haves." The idea that they're all fine, mature decision-makers is a generalization that doesn't stand much scrutiny.
No doubt. But it's not usually of the type that ruins them financially. You don't see many people who were out having litters of kids before they were married in that demographic, I should add.
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:14 PM
 
Location: 95468
1,382 posts, read 2,381,576 times
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Diversity brought something sharp to school.
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:04 AM
 
140 posts, read 618,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMartel2 View Post
Nonsense. You can't tell me that all the kids from Brentwood who bang out 32s on the ACT and won full-ride scholarships as a result only achieved that because they were born into life's lottery (unless you're perhaps referring to genetics). Not if you in anyway believe in personal accountability.
Stable home lives, ample economic resources, vastly more enriching home environments, better educated parents, more social structure. All of those make a tremendous difference in both measured IQs and educational outcomes. Which of those are due to the personal merits of the kid?
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Old 03-23-2009, 03:01 PM
 
541 posts, read 1,222,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbmill3 View Post
Stable home lives, ample economic resources, vastly more enriching home environments, better educated parents, more social structure. All of those make a tremendous difference in both measured IQs and educational outcomes. Which of those are due to the personal merits of the kid?
And being born with a 140 IQ would be nice, too, but that's not due to anything the kid did, either. Nor is that necessary to pull a 32 on the ACT.

I agree with everything you say, but I don't draw a single conclusion over it other than some people are better parents than others and that this translates into more productive kids on the whole. Were you trying to make one?

Again, I state, if parents put forth the time and effort to achieve their financial dreams, should they not be able to pass those advantages on to their children? They're certainly paying higher taxes for it.
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Old 03-23-2009, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Madison, Tennessee
427 posts, read 1,305,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMartel2 View Post
And being born with a 140 IQ would be nice, too, but that's not due to anything the kid did, either. Nor is that necessary to pull a 32 on the ACT.

I agree with everything you say, but I don't draw a single conclusion over it other than some people are better parents than others and that this translates into more productive kids on the whole. Were you trying to make one?

Again, I state, if parents put forth the time and effort to achieve their financial dreams, should they not be able to pass those advantages on to their children? They're certainly paying higher taxes for it.
You've created straw men here, and in your previous post, in which you misrepresented what I said.

That's why I didn't bother to answer.
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Old 03-23-2009, 05:52 PM
 
541 posts, read 1,222,784 times
Reputation: 548
Quote:
You've created straw men here, and in your previous post, in which you misrepresented what I said. That's why I didn't bother to answer.
Nope, not really. Am I making an argument out of absurdity to demonstrate a point? Sure. Life isn't equal for anyone, no matter how hard we'd like to try to force others into a state of equality. There's not a natural system that abides by such a rule. We can accept that as a society, or we can continue to fight uphill when in reality the uphill struggle is up to each and every one of us individually, no matter where we start on that hill, be that starting off a bit poorer in life or starting out with a double digit IQ.

As for the strawman I created, it would perhaps be best to refer to them as strawmen and women because they exist by the score. Making that accusation is a nice way of stalling on an argument, though; I'll give you that.
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