Brentwood vs Franklin (Germantown: low income, condos, townhomes)

[akm4]

Originally Posted by greencard

In Franklin/Brentwood, it doesn't matter what your color/race.
It's about how much money you have.

Really? I live in Franklin, and let me tell you- I couldn't care less how much $ my friends have, nor do they care about my bank account. I'm sure there are some shallow people in Brentwood and Franklin, but that's true of every place. I just think it's a stereotype, not reality.

[Tunky]

We've lived in Franklin for a year.

We've found it to be a very friendly, welcoming place to live. I've not experienced any of this elitist, snobby behavior that I read about on this forum. My only regret is that I have to travel with my job so much, I don't get to hang out at home more!

[MantaRay]

Originally Posted by akm4

Really? I live in Franklin, and let me tell you- I couldn't care less how much $ my friends have, nor do they care about my bank account. I'm sure there are some shallow people in Brentwood and Franklin, but that's true of every place. I just think it's a stereotype, not reality.

There are two sides to the "it only matters how much money you have" comment. There is the side about shallow attitudes, and there is the side about housing availability. In point of fact, people move to Brentwood to live in McMansions. Affording a "typical" home in Brentwood IS all about the money. Franklin moreso than Brentwood has some, emphasis on some, housing offerings in the more affordable range. But both have a considerable price exclusionary reality.

Case in point. Lenox Village, off Nolensville Rd. just east of Brentwood in Nashville, is a new TND residential project, or new urbanist project. Westhaven is a new TND or new urbanist project off Hwy 96. in Franklin, west of downtown. A 2,000sf home in Lenox Village will run you somewhere around $240k. The same size home in Westhaven will run you somewhere around $400k. Both are the same style neighborhoods with a neighborhood town center and green space and similar styled homes with porches, etc. Both are targeted to people with means, ie. not the lower income demographic. Yet to live in Westhaven, you're paying $160k or thereabouts more for basically the same thing. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that living in Franklin becomes all about the money, even if you are a down to earth middle class family that likes TND neighborhoods but are not snobs. So the "it's all about the money" comment doesn't have to be limited to people's attitudes or how snobby they are. The fact of the matter is that, generally speaking, choosing to live in Brentwood or Franklin is all about the money, even moreso than comparable suburban neighborhoods in other parts of town. I cited a comparable neighborhood in Nashville, but I bet the same would hold true if I cited Indian Lake Village in Hendersonville or Providence in Mt. Juliet to compare to Westhaven, or if I found neighborhoods to compare to Brentwood's.

[denawilliams]

While, yes, Lenox Village is less expensive than Westhaven, there are considerable differences in the two. Whether the differences are worth a good bit more money to a buyer is up to the buyer. But Westhaven has many more amenities as a neighborhood than Lenox Village. Yes, they do both have a town center with a few retail/restaurant options. That is really the only neighborhood amenity Lenox Village has other than a playground. Westhaven has all of that plus: a full time social coordinator planning events constantly for families. They have an enormous clubhouse with meeting facilities, game room, fitness room, art center and a movie theater. Two tennis courts. They have several giant pools with several pool amenities (5 star hotel designed pools, a heated saltwater lap pool, 119 ft water slide, sprayground for kids, pool for smaller kids, and a pool cafe). It also has a golf course. While some of this is covered in higher neighborhood association fees, you do pay for more for houses in neighborhoods packed full with amenities. In addition, I believe their association fees cover their lawncare and the horticulturist's work in the neighborhood and their own yard as well as cable, etc. Now, some people do not care as much about neighborhood amenities, and that's okay. But they do have a higher price tag.

In addition, many of these homes in Westhaven are custom homes built with more architectural detail, higher quality finishes, upgrades and materials than Lenox Village. The costs to build a home in Westhaven are much greater because of these differences. Again, this might not be as important to some people, but these things, too come at a higher cost to the buyer.

I'm not trying to argue anything, but I do work in both of those neighborhoods. From a real estate perspective, there is a considerable difference that warrants a difference in prices. I think they're both great neighborhoods for those people that seek this type of lifestyle. But, while similar in concept, they are quite different in terms of real estate value, county aside. Again, you may not value those extras in terms of their costs...which is why it's so great that we have so many options out there for you to find what you do value for the price.

[gbone]

Originally Posted by MantaRay

There are two sides to the "it only matters how much money you have" comment. There is the side about shallow attitudes, and there is the side about housing availability. In point of fact, people move to Brentwood to live in McMansions. Affording a "typical" home in Brentwood IS all about the money. Franklin moreso than Brentwood has some, emphasis on some, housing offerings in the more affordable range. But both have a considerable price exclusionary reality.

Case in point. Lenox Village, off Nolensville Rd. just east of Brentwood in Nashville, is a new TND residential project, or new urbanist project. Westhaven is a new TND or new urbanist project off Hwy 96. in Franklin, west of downtown. A 2,000sf home in Lenox Village will run you somewhere around $240k. The same size home in Westhaven will run you somewhere around $400k. Both are the same style neighborhoods with a neighborhood town center and green space and similar styled homes with porches, etc. Both are targeted to people with means, ie. not the lower income demographic. Yet to live in Westhaven, you're paying $160k or thereabouts more for basically the same thing. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that living in Franklin becomes all about the money, even if you are a down to earth middle class family that likes TND neighborhoods but are not snobs. So the "it's all about the money" comment doesn't have to be limited to people's attitudes or how snobby they are. The fact of the matter is that, generally speaking, choosing to live in Brentwood or Franklin is all about the money, even moreso than comparable suburban neighborhoods in other parts of town. I cited a comparable neighborhood in Nashville, but I bet the same would hold true if I cited Indian Lake Village in Hendersonville or Providence in Mt. Juliet to compare to Westhaven, or if I found neighborhoods to compare to Brentwood's.

I am very familiar with both the Lenox Village development and Westhaven. I've sold and bought residences in both areas as a Realtor and have friends in both areas. I have also seen the reports of numerous home inspectors for both of these areas. To say these two developments are very similar and imply that the price differences aren't justified is like saying an orange tastes the same as an apple because they both have skin. The quality of construction, the upgrades, and the amenities are quite a bit higher in Westhaven. Anyone that just drives through both of these areas will also notice a substantial difference in the look and feel of the developments. I am not saying that Lenox Village is bad, it's just different and it just doesn't have many of the things that Westhaven has that typically costs more money. There are also other things that increase the value of a house that have little to do with the actual house. Some of those would be crime rates in the area, quality of the school system, an abundance of youth and family activities just to mention a few. The clients that I have had that wanted to buy in Brentwood or Franklin were primarily looking for low crime rates, a high quality school system, and an abundance of youth and family activities. They were willing to pay more for a house to get this and it wasn't necessarily a "McMansion". In this respect, it's not "all about the money".
By the way, I don't live in either Brentwood or Franklin, I live in Nashville.

[MantaRay]

To me paying extra for things that are covered in homeowner's association fees (which are probably steep anyway), is only warranted IF the land availability is so low that there is only a fixed potential inventory pitted against a high demand. Otherwise it seems like paying twice for the same thing, paying once in the home price (and ensuing property taxes) and paying again in home owners association fees. But I agree it is a matter of what one is willing to pay.

As far as architectural detail and finishes, while what you say is true, I have a little experience with some TNDs, and at least for the one's I'm familiar with, the developments hand pick the builders and FORCE certain architectural details and finishes on builders which FORCE home prices up. They often only approve the higher priced builders anyway, so that their builder list will build a house for X dollars, but another reputable area builder could build that same house with the same materials for less. And developers will sometimes charge a marketing fee (in the $thousands) that is tacked onto the home price. So developers often end up INTENTIONALLY pricing more middle income families out. On an aside, this is one reason many TNDs get criticized for hyping the "mixing" of house pricing points in their marketing but only delivering high end, exclusionary product in the actual build-out.

I don't know if Westhaven in particular uses these tactics, but if they are like some of the TNDs I'm familiar with, they do. I mean really. Everybody knows that housing prices in the West are higher than housing prices in the South. Yet you have a Westhaven in Franklin, TN pricing at or above the largest TND project in the nation, Stapleton in Denver, CO. I can get into a Peachtree City, GA home, a southwestern suburb of Atlanta, for less than Westhaven, and it has more amenities in a more expensive metro market. That doesn't happen by accident. My personal belief is that Westhaven developers intentionally priced out middle class families, using those little "games" some TND developers like to play. I'm not 100% sure of this, but it is my guess that it is the case.

At any rate, I drew a conclusion about the Franklin and Brentwood areas specifically using TNDs as my examples. However, I believe the same conclusion could be drawn using the "cookie cutter" suburban sprawl neighborhoods in Franklin and Brentwood compared to other Nashville suburbs as well, and typical cookie cutter suburban neighborhoods aren't usually crammed with amenities like a TND is. The conclusion is still the same- living in Franklin and Brentwood is about how much money you have.

[MantaRay]

Originally Posted by gbone

There are also other things that increase the value of a house that have little to do with the actual house. Some of those would be crime rates in the area, quality of the school system, an abundance of youth and family activities just to mention a few. The clients that I have had that wanted to buy in Brentwood or Franklin were primarily looking for low crime rates, a high quality school system, and an abundance of youth and family activities.

Which can be found in places like Mt. Juliet and Hendersonville as well for a lower price tag. Heck, you even get better lake, trail, and park access than in Frankin and Brentwood with those two. My main point is that you can find what is in Franklin and Brentwood in other areas of town for less. The example I gave was specific, but a wider net of examples could be cast and return the same conclusion. A move to Franklin or Brentwood is ultimately about how much money you have.

For many suburban towns, town-developer relationships and zoning have a lot to do with this sort of dynamic, and for many suburban towns, it is an intentional thing. One city in Columbia County Georgia, one of the "highest rated counties for schools" in Georgia, does this sort of thing. They intentionally zone and work with developers with plans for upper middle and wealthy income residences, intentionally shunning more center middle class or lower middle class offerings. I don't know if Franklin and Brentwood do this, but I wouldn't be suprised if they did.

On an aside, here is something I think people should know about the whole "quality of the school system" mentality, since it was mentioned as a factor. Maybe it's significant to my point in this discussion, maybe it's not. But it's a truth not commonly recognized by many who are quick to bring up or bandwagon onto this category. My summary is the first post on the page.

[akm4]

You live in South Carolina? Do you have a second home here, or are you from the Nashville area? Just trying to better understand your perspective.

[MantaRay]

I was born and raised in Nashville and have lots of family there- mom, dad, grandmother, grandfather, brother, cousins, aunts, etc. I went to high school at Hume-Fogg downtown. I went away to college, got employed, and moved to SC some years ago. So I live in SC now with the job that brought me here.

[fumanchu41]

Originally Posted by MantaRay

I was born and raised in Nashville and have lots of family there- mom, dad, grandmother, grandfather, brother, cousins, aunts, etc. I went to high school at Hume-Fogg downtown. I went away to college, got employed, and moved to SC some years ago. So I live in SC now with the job that brought me here.

Can somebody tell me what TND is? It's driving me crazy!