Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If you are not into learning and understanding, then I can understand you wouldn't appreciate those videos.
That's not what I said...I said I thought the video I watched was very 'sexy'...meaning cool...fun...and went on to say how I like observing such collisions in nature...
Quote:
Centimeters per year is not nonsense, it is measured. What's nonsensical is your blanket dissmissal of measured observations. Get your head out of the sand. You are not thinking things through. If plates move at speeds that you are contemplating, you obviously are not considering the consequences of such movements. Those consequences would be catastophic.
Catastrophic enough to end the dinasours rein maybe?
Quote:
Just consider the heat generated, such as vaporizing the oceans,
To possibly form the polar ice caps maybe? Maybe that explains all the frozen ice?
and then you have to stop the runnaway plates. You provide no evidence of this, just you whimsical conjecture, if fact all the evidence indicates that this did not happen in the past.
Quote:
One of the many ways that we know that speeds such as this have not occurred in the past is simply from current observations in stratigraphy. You are just not aware of geologic processes that are in play, and ill-equipped to responsibly critique well known mechanisms, thus basing your conclusions on an emotional level, without much forethought. Think about this, if plates were moving as fast as you suggest, why do we see huge, unbroken folds of strata. To get folds on this scale, even doubling back on itself, take a very slow rate of movement, otherwise they wouldn't fold so nicely, yet that is exactly what we see. I've got the seismic and well logs that show a real nice profile of a series of formations in a real nice unbroken s-shaped curve. In fact I drilled straight down through the same formation three times. Of course the middle section was inverted, as expected. Given enough time and sufficient pressures, rigid solids can bend and fold like maleable putty. These ubiquitous features are anathema to your runaway plate movements. What you are proposing would not allow such folds to even exist and would simply shatter. Think man, think!
Ok, I will...
Quote:
Give me some actual evidence to make me consider that these speeds have been significantly faster in the past.
That is not fair...I cannot take you into a time machine like Dr Who...
With just the massive amounts of heat generated form your scenario, certain predictions could easily be made as to what we would expect to see in the rock record. Such evidence would comprise of for instance, a complete melting of considerable expanses of continental plates, removing any semblance of an ordered stratigraphy. None has ever been observed. Otherwise without any evidence, you give me no reason to conclude otherwise.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman
What you are referring to are mostly random/transient catastrophic phenomenon. By orders of magnitude, the most significant changes that occur on the Earth happen over very VERY long periods of time.
I will take that into consideration...
Quote:
For instance a continental plate that moves at a rate of 5 cm/yr can be expected to move 31 miles in one million years. In 65 million years, it can be expected to move over 2000 miles. these are not insignificant distances. And in fact, these kinds of movements have been observed and measured all over the planet.
I do appreciate your patience...and nicer tone...but in response to 'this has been observed all over the planet' comment, I ask...
'Who has been alive for millions of years to observe this'?
And I mean that sincerely...not trying to be a smart or clever...I'm just asking for clarity...thanks...
I do appreciate your patience...and nicer tone...but in response to 'this has been observed all over the planet' comment, I ask...
'Who has been alive for millions of years to observe this'?
And I mean that sincerely...not trying to be a smart or clever...I'm just asking for clarity...thanks...
You must feel like you are being tag-teamed. You don't need to be present at an event to determine if an event happend in a particular way. The events that occured in the past, on this scale, depending on how they happened, will have huge and very specific consequences according to the Laws of physics. The consequenses and their effects are predictable and should be readily observed in the present. That is also the testable aspect in the forensic sciences. Where are those present observations? You should be able to present those that I suggested, without any need to go back into time. Unless of course magic was involved that erased all that evidence and substituted evidence to the contrary. Then all discussion is pointless. So until you do that, why would I have any reason to conclude otherwise? Now don't hold out on me.
You must feel like you are being tag-teamed. You don't need to be present at an event to determine if an event happend in a particular way. The events that occured in the past, on this scale, depending on how they happened, will have huge and very specific consequences according to the Laws of physics. The consequenses and their effects are predictable and should be readily observed in the present. That is also the testable aspect in the forensic sciences. Where are those present observations. YOu should be able to present those that I suggested, no need to go back into time. Unless of course magic was involved that erased all that evidence and substituted evidence to the contrary. Then all discussion is pointless. So until you do that, why would I have any reason to conclude otherwise? Now don't hold out on me.
Yes, I do feel like I'm being tag-teamed...thrown around the ring by two renowned geologist...
But at least we're getting along better...
And maybe others are having their questions answered through our debates or exchanges...
I do appreciate your patience...and nicer tone...but in response to 'this has been observed all over the planet' comment, I ask...
'Who has been alive for millions of years to observe this'?
And I mean that sincerely...not trying to be a smart or clever...I'm just asking for clarity...thanks...
There are MANY examples:
1) the same rocks found across the San Andreas fault, but 300 miles apart;
2) When the Appalachian mountains formed, they ran from what is now Oklahoma all the way to Norway - the opening of the Atlantic basin broke up the chain.
3) Black diamonds are only found in two places on Earth - in the eastern Amazon, and in West Africa. They are the same age and found in the exact same rocks, but are now separated by the Atlantic basin.
This is all widely known. Do you need more? Google is your friend.
1) the same rocks found across the San Andreas fault, but 300 miles apart;
2) When the Appalachian mountains formed, they ran from what is now Oklahoma all the way to Norway - the opening of the Atlantic basin broke up the chain.
3) Black diamonds are only found in two places on Earth - in the eastern Amazon, and in West Africa. They are the same age and found in the exact same rocks, but are now separated by the Atlantic basin.
This is all widely known. Do you need more? Google is your friend.
You are tough guy....
I never new how tough geologist could be...
We've turned it into like an extreme UFC type of match...
We've brought the 'sport' back into science...the 'umph'...ye baby!
But anyways...all that aside...
I think as of now...our real only area of conflict is the speed in which all this occured...
My only fear is the only way I could give you evidence is if nature does one on us...and that would probably come at the expense of many inhabitants of wherever it occured...
You have really taken me through the ringer...
And have given me lot's to think about...
I have a cool photo i want to show you, of when I was in the SW desert, and how they dynomite through rocks, to make highways...it's really cool...
maybe you can tell me what kind of rocks they are...
I never new how tough geologist could be...
We've turned it into like an extreme UFC type of match...
We've brought the 'sport' back into science...the 'umph'...ye baby!
But anyways...all that aside...
I think as of now...our real only area of conflict is the speed in which all this occured...
My only fear is the only way I could give you evidence is if nature does one on us...and that would probably come at the expense of many inhabitants of wherever it occured...
You have really taken me through the ringer...
And have given me lot's to think about...
I have a cool photo i want to show you, of when I was in the SW desert, and how they dynomite through rocks, to make highways...it's really cool...
maybe you can tell me what kind of rocks they are...
I'll upload it a bit later...
There really isn't any issue with regard to geologic time or with regard to how long geologic processes take to shape our world. It is all well documented.
There really isn't any issue with regard to geologic time or with regard to how long geologic processes take to shape our world. It is all well documented.
Will you lighten up, just for a minute?
I feel like I'm talking with Spock, from Star Trek...
That mountain stood the same for hundreds of years, then suddenly...Bamo! Kaboom! half the mountains side gone...
Just because you can't SEE change, doesn't mean it's not happening. Have you ever stopped to think about everything that had been going on WITHIN the mountain for a lengthy period of time prior to its eruption? Even several days BEFORE it blew, change actually was visible in the form of a bulge on the mountain's northern slope. There were also numerous earthquakes and mini eruptions in the weeks and months prior to the main event. It wasn't just sitting there doing nothing one day, then blown apart the next.
Quote:
Just consider the heat generated, such as vaporizing the oceans
Quote:
To possibly form the polar ice caps maybe? Maybe that explains all the frozen ice?
How would vaporizing oceans form icecaps? The frozen icecaps are the result of millions of years of snowfall on both land and sea ice. Arctic and Antarctic winters are very cold as NO radiation from the sun can reach these places at all during winter, and are still pretty cold (especially in the Antarctic) during the summer when only small amounts of solar radiation reach these areas. This results in year round mean temperatures to be plenty cold enough to support the snow and ice with very little to no melt or evaporation in summers, and therefore allows it accumulate year after year after year for millions of years. Therefore, icecaps. Nothing to do with vaporized oceans here. (If anything vaporizing the ocean would probably increase world temperature by creating global cloud cover (trapping in heat) and cause heavy world wide rainfall).
The Antarctic ice cap is only 45.5 million years old. There have been many other ice caps at both poles, but the present caps aren't all that old, geologically speaking.
How would vaporizing oceans form icecaps? The frozen icecaps are the result of millions of years of snowfall on both land and sea ice.
There we go with the millions of years stuff again...heck, have you ever seen what a good long 3 days of snow does to Wisconson?...piles up higher than a house...It does not take millions and millions of years for snow to cover the arctic...
Quote:
Arctic and Antarctic winters are very cold as NO radiation from the sun can reach these places at all during winter, and are still pretty cold (especially in the Antarctic) during the summer when only small amounts of solar radiation reach these areas.
What's that one phenomina, where the polarity of the earth shifts?
I'll have to look that up...something about the magnetic field of the earth shifts every so often...this could have an effect on that...
This results in year round mean temperatures to be plenty cold enough to support the snow and ice with very little to no melt or evaporation in summers, and therefore allows it accumulate year after year after year for millions of years. Therefore, icecaps. Nothing to do with vaporized oceans here. (If anything vaporizing the ocean would probably increase world temperature by creating global cloud cover (trapping in heat) and cause heavy world wide rainfall).
I forget where, but every year somewhere up by Alaska or north of...the polar bears wait for the 'ice' to form....so they can work there way out to hunt...
Shipping lanes that are clear up there, freeze, the ocean freezes, come winter...this does not take million and millions of years....
I don't want to get pulled into this...cause I'm making a lot of people mad, upset...
They think I'm trying to promote God, or Jesus...and tell them they're condemned to hll...just because I have a different theory...
Some people really have issues with God, and I wish they'd leave me out of it...
I'm just going by my observed science...I'm not trying to promote God...
I don't need science to proove or disproove God...it's a faith, it has nothing to do with science...but others don't see it like that...
If I go against this billions and millions of years stuff...
They think I'm trying to perform an excorcism on them...
I'm not a Priest....ok.... and I assure you I'm not here to cast the 'devil' out of anyone...
Infact, I would run if I saw anything like that...
So I'm not here to promote God...I'm hear to promote thought...independent thought...which spurns innovation, new ideas, challenges old stale notions...and is how progress is made...
Now it's become like a witch hunt in reverse...
I'm sorry cjg5, I kinda got of course there...
I owe you a better response than that...a more scientific one...
I'll repost a better response, without the drama...
Last edited by Time and Space; 12-27-2011 at 11:25 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Get your head out of the sand. You are not thinking things through. If plates move at speeds that you are contemplating, you obviously are not considering the consequences of such movements. Those consequences would be catastophic.
