Lincoln, Nebraska - progressive? (Madison, Ong: home, gated, live in)

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by mattpoulsen

Your ignorance on constitutional law is astounding.

Ha. This coming from someone who thinks the founding Fathers outlawed religious-based legislation. Get back to me when you have actually read the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, and the letters of Jefferson and Adams.

Originally Posted by mattpoulsen

First, different peoples rights are weighed all of the time!

I love it how your team makes contradictory arguments and then ascribes them to me. ItsMeFred is the one who said "your rights end where the rights of others begin", or some such nonsense. My response was meant to illustrate that it isn't quite that easy. Thanks for proving my point. Someone has to determine what rights belong to which people, and what conditions may abridge them. Sounds like we agree so far ...

Originally Posted by mattpoulsen

In the same way you claim you have a right to raise a family in a non-gay world, Southerns in the late 19th century and early 20th century argued the same thing in regard to interracial marriage!

Nebraska and California are two non-Southern states that had laws against interracial marriage, so don't get all high and mighty as though racism was primarily a Southern problem. But this is a silly red herring. There is nothing intrinsically immoral about interracial marriage, and laws prohibiting it were inconsistent with Christian morality. The Catholic Church has been marrying interracial couples for 2000 years. Homosexuality, however, is one of the four sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance. Same-sex marriage has never been sanctioned by any of the world's major religions. In California the coalition for Proposition 8 included Catholics, Mormons, Evangelicals, Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus. Sounds ecumenical to me.

Originally Posted by mattpoulsen

The point is person's right to marry outweighs YOUR right not to be offended by that marriage.

Says who? Says MattPoulsen and Company. Big flipping deal. You people have no authority and there is no reason anyone should listen to you. Why choose MattPoulsen over natural law, divine revelation, common sense, and 10,000 years of civilization?

Originally Posted by mattpoulsen

Someone has to determine what rights trump other rights...guess who decides that?? Yup...the courts! Or Congress...but ONLY via Constitutional amendment...NOT statute.

The courts were never intended to "determine what rights trump other rights" in a moral and spiritual vacuum, as if the mere opinions of judges were the last word. Re-read the Declaration of Independence. Rights, for the founding Fathers, are derived from "nature and nature's God", and because these are rooted in natural law and divine revelation they are unalienable and cannot be abridged by the arbitrary will of tyrants.

Originally Posted by mattpoulsen

That doesn't mean that Congress can't pass laws that are incidental to beliefs held within a religion!! But it is a long held tenet that laws can NOT be merely moral...that has to be an additional public policy reason, other than morality, for the restriction.

That "long held tenet" was certainly not held by the majority of the founding Fathers, nor was it imposed by the Constitution. As I mentioned (and you ignored), the Establishment Clause was not applied to anything but the US Congress until 1947. That meant that states, counties, cities and schools could, until 1947, legally "establish" the religion of their choice.

But we are straying far from the topic. There are plenty of public policy reasons to ban same-sex marriage. Homosexuality 1) spreads deadly diseases; 2) leads to high rates of pedophilia, suicide, substance abuse, domestic violence and mental illness; 3) corrupts the morals of the young; 4) reduces national fertility; 5) destroys families; 6) encourages obscenity. I suppose I could go on if I had more time. But it absolutely cannot be argued that legislating against same-sex marriage amounts to the "establishment of a religion".

Originally Posted by mattpoulsen

Further, even athiests believe murder, stealing and etc. are wrong.

You mean like abortion and euthanasia? That explains all those atheists picketing abortion mills and campaigning for pro-life legislation.

Ah. You see, this is where things stand. The religious and cultural divide is so great in this country that we can't even agree on what is murder and what isn't. To me, abortion is the murder of an innocent baby. To you, perhaps, it's nothing but the surgical removal of a cancerous growth. Religion answers such moral questions with authority. But without God, we have opinions of convenience and nothing more.

[itsMeFred]

ItsMeFred is the one who said "your rights end where the rights of others begin", or some such nonsense.

Um, no...
John Locke wrote about this basic principle about 400 years ago... (Since you're well read wrt the Constitution and connected papers, I'll assume you're well aware of who Locke was)
I assure you, the idea was not mine.

Also, the 14th Amendment says: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;
Ie, laws which seek to preclude one group of citizenry from enjoying the same rights and privileges as another (ie, gay marriage) are unConstitutional.

As Americans, we must all respect the authority of the Constitution. That's part of being a citizen of this country.
However, only Christians should respect the authority of the Bible. Asking a non-believer to defer to the Bible is like asking a Christian to defer to the Koran's superior wisdom.
It simply doesn't make any sense...

The Lord gave us the Bible to know how to live our lives, to seek Him and witness for Him.
It's not the tool by which we're to beat non-believers into submission.

[itsMeFred]

And where do you get the idea that atheists aren't pro-life?

For starters: Opinion from a pro-life atheist


Half of our problems in this world arise from peoples' needs to force others into these tidy little pigeon holes: liberals are pro-abortion, Christians hate gays, atheists have no morals, conservatives are all religious fanatics, etc, etc.
The sole purpose of which is to lump them into that category so that they can then be marginalized and dismissed.

People are individuals.We are not stereotypes.

[DTO Luv]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

Homosexuality, however, is one of the four sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance.

But we are straying far from the topic. There are plenty of public policy reasons to ban same-sex marriage. Homosexuality 1) spreads deadly diseases; 2) leads to high rates of pedophilia, suicide, substance abuse, domestic violence and mental illness; 3) corrupts the morals of the young; 4) reduces national fertility; 5) destroys families; 6) encourages obscenity. I suppose I could go on if I had more time.

That first sentence made me literally bust out loud laugh. Thanks.

Your other talking points are just more nonsense as well.

1. Heterosexuality doesn't spread diseases? HIV itself does not come from and sort of same sex act. It was originally a disease in monkeys in Africa (when it was SIV) and then mutated to affect humans. Two guys can go at it forever and never spring up a new strand of HIV. Heterosexuals get the disease too.

2. Pedophilia? Please. Most case are not same sex molestations. It's usually older men and little girls. I would agree with you that it does lead to suicide but it's usually because gay teens that don't feel they will ever be accepted or can live happily so they do tend to kill themselves at a higher rate than striaght teens. But this seems to have to do more with OTHER people's problems with homosexuality than their own.

Substance abuse isn't anymore of a problem for gays than it is straight people. Domestic violence? I guess all of these YWCA ads I see reaching out to battered wives and girlfriends are all aimed at the wrong audience. As for mental illness, there's no evidence that being gay leads to mental illness. And if you're trying to make the point that being gay is a mental illness, every credible psychological institution (with people who know more about it than you or me) negates claims that homosexuality is a mental illness.

3. How are gays responsible for corrupting the morals of the young? All of the videos I've seen on MTV lately look heavily aimed at the heterosexuals to me.

4. Do you know what else reduces rampant pregnancies and large families? EDUCATION and INTELLECT! People with higher levels of education and IQs have less children than those with out. Do you know who the biggest breeders are in this country? The religious. Do you see a connection? I sure do. As have many scientists over the last few years.

5. Yes homosexuality can destroy families. If you treat your gay relative like ****, I expect that will destroy your relationship.

6. Encourages obscenity? You mean like rap music?

[itsMeFred]

While I will agree, most of Pilgrims allegations are completely inaccurate (I'm guessing that's why he's just throwing stuff out, rather than giving actual stats and facts), I have to say this-

Do you know who the biggest breeders are in this country? The religious.

caught my attention.

Do you have any facts to support this?

I always though it was primarily income and educational level that determined family size, indepedant of religious affiliation.

[mattpoulsen]

I have read the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, Anti-federalist response, and transcripts written by Madison of the Constitutional Convention. Further, I have actually studied constitutional law...NOT just heard about it from Glen Beck.

Further, at NO point did I say the Founders want to outlaw religion. I have said it explicitly about 3 times now! They wanted to make sure ALL religions were protected which meant NOT prescribing to a single religion. modcut-profanity
At this point, it is clear you have no understanding of the Constitution or the federal government.

And as far as who said YOUR right to live in a non-gay world is superseded by a gay person's right to marry....ummm....I didn't say so...the Iowa Supreme Court did.

As far as your "reasons" for banning gay activity...all I can say is "are you serious???"

My god! How unbelievably ignorant!

At this point, you are so low on the intellectual honesty meter you no longer warrant a response. Good riddance...enjoy your bigotry and please keep it out of Nebraska. <Modcut>
By the way...your god is a myth..created BY your opinions on morality.

[itsMeFred]

By the way...your god is a myth..created BY your opinions on morality.

I'm a Christian.

Thank you for your tolerance and respect of my faith...

[DTO Luv]

Originally Posted by itsMeFred

I'm a Christian.

Thank you for your tolerance and respect of my faith...

Where was the disrespect? All religions (not just the ones with jesus) are mythology. There wasn't anything negative in their.

[itsMeFred]

Actually the term I would have chosen would be "condescension."

[mattpoulsen]

There is no disrespect meant. But I think religion is for the most part invented by man. "Your god" is meant to mean his "version of god."

Meaning there either is or isn't a god...if there is a god no one possibly has a perfect description of what it expects from humans. So any religion that proclaims to know, by definition, has to be invented by man.

My point is his version of god (you know the one that demands we gather up all the gays and burn them at the stake) is a myth...created and perpetuated by small minded people like himself.

As a disclaimer, my wife is a devout Catholic...however she is a Catholic who believes in gay rights.

On a side note, it is worth noting that just because I don't believe what one religion believes doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful. I don't have to be silent in order to respect your beliefs. I respect them greatly...but it doesn't mean I agree with them. My wife and I have this conversation on a weekly basis it seems.